Hrothgar15 Posted May 28, 2016 Author Share Posted May 28, 2016 At any rate, I look forward to hearing any band or corps that begins to use this new Bb Bugle. I also hope, that if successful, that it inspires the activity to realize that conical bugles with the right design are simply better for outdoor use. Now all we need to do is get DCI championships outdoors again... 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84BDsop Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 finishing up my. K90 based contrabass in Bb around November. Oooooooo......can't wait to hear THAT one! Did you have access to any of the old tooling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 (edited) On 5/28/2016 at 9:50 AM, 84BDsop said: Did you have access to any of the old tooling? The Bb soprano bell was made with the K20 mandrel from Kanstul, but the company is very difficult to work with. Every time I order a batch, the prices/quality changes, and the time frame is too slow. I decided to cast the mandrel overseas with the factory I'm working with, with that I can offer additional options. Kanstul can only do yellow brass and copper. Now I can offer yellow brass, gold brass, copper and bronze. Gold brass is the key, it produces a heavier/denser sound with a greater punch! The K90 is a different story. Kanstul has the mandrel for the outer wrap, but their tooling for the inner branches is quite different from the original K90. So the Bb contrabass project is taking a lot of time to do. At the factory I'm using a K90 and the Kanstul 5/4 Grande as our reference point. The cost of this project so far have drained me significantly, so my sister company from Europe and Japan are pitching in to help. Since I have no plan to go International, they will have the distribution rights outside of US starting 2018. Projected completion date will be end of this year. I wanted it ready for the 2017 DCI season... Edited January 18, 2017 by Vance 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84BDsop Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 No way to reverse-engineer the tooling using modern tech, I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 (edited) Andalucia AdVance Series Phase III (includes two models, identical except that one uses Kanstul's powerbore, which is still unexplained): .469" bore, 5 1/4" bell The Andalucia horns seem to be identical save a slightly larger bell and a shepherd's crook, which is an aesthetic/ergonomic feature (it makes the instrument slightly shorter than a regular trumpet, and is described as being intended to replicate the look and feel of a cornet). Just noticed this post. Let me clarify your post and assumptions. First off, Kanstul offered two bells on their G bugle, the K20 and Powerbore. The powerbore bell is actually available on their Coliseum and the Wild Thing trumpet. They have admitted to me that the K20 bell will not work on any of their trumpets. Also Dynasty attempted to install their soprano bell onto a trumpet (when they were with the Blue Devils), but they couldn't get it done either. There were lots of skepticism when I introduced the horn, but my sales result vindicates the skepticism. Other than the four demo horns on hand, all the production have been spoken for, well into July/August. Most of the horns were sold not to drum corps people, but professional players around the greater Los Angeles area. As for the Powerbore soprano, it consist of two features that are different than the K20 model - It has a heavy receiver (but will not accommodate some mouthpieces), and a narrower bell flare. During the late 1990's. The Blue Devils actually had their soprano line using both models, leads were on the powerbore and 2nd/3rd were on the K20. It gave them a greater punch on top and more color on the solos. Second. My Bb soprano is identical in length as my Phase II trumpet. The shepherds crook is much more compact than other trumpets such as Marcinkiewicz or Adams. I will not give away why the shepherd's crook was used, but it is a must have feature to make the K20 bell work on the trumpet body. I also offer standard bend on my Bb soprano, but it's a made to order only for those who desires the traditional look, but people only pick the crook model after test drive them. Finally, according to Raiders, they already noticed an increase in sound. The kids are very happy with the horns. I believe it will give other corps an idea what future route to approach since there is finally another option - To stay with the status quo by trying to make their drum corps sound like a good concert band, or go back to the G bugle "in your face" sound. Only time will tell, but as for now, I have lots of high schools locally in S. Cal that wants the horns. In essence, I've creating a new market in which high school bands will actually buy trumpets, instead of having students supplying their own. What made the old Drum Corps so much louder is due to two instruments, the Soprano and the Contrabass. The old King, Kanstul and Dynasty bugles were 5/4 Size, everything now from King, Yamaha and Jupiter are 4/4. Once I finish my next project of having a 5/4 on the market, it will change the landscape completely. Any World Class drum corps can produce the sound that has been missing since 2000. With 80 horns allowed instead of the old 64, they can be even louder than the G era! Powebore vs K20 (bottom) Edited May 31, 2016 by Vance 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RContra Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 (edited) What made the old Drum Corps so much louder is due to two instruments, the Soprano and the Contrabass. The old King, Kanstul and Dynasty bugles were 5/4 Size, everything now from King, Yamaha and Jupiter are 4/4. Once I finish my next project of having a 5/4 on the market, it will change the landscape completely. Any World Class drum corps can produce the sound that has been missing since 2000. With 80 horns allowed instead of the old 64, they can be even louder than the G era! Exciting stuff! What's got me curious at the moment - as a contra player who has marched both Gs and Bbs, my concern is in performer health. With today's physical demands, the Yamaha horns blow the competition out of the water in terms of ergonomics. How will a 5/4 horn remain light enough? Talk to any member who has switched from Jupiter to Yamahas about how their entire summer is affected by the size and weight of those horns and they all say the same thing -- the Yamahas are so much easier on their bodies and lead to a much better drum corps experience. Not to naysay at all. :) I'm hoping you knock this one out of the park! Just curious about how you keep the visual side and performer health considered while making the horns. Edited May 31, 2016 by RContra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Exciting stuff! What's got me curious at the moment - as a contra player who has marched both Gs and Bbs, my concern is in performer health. With today's physical demands, the Yamaha horns blow the competition out of the water in terms of ergonomics. How will a 5/4 horn remain light enough? Talk to any member who has switched from Jupiter to Yamahas about how their entire summer is affected by the size and weight of those horns and they all say the same thing -- the Yamahas are so much easier on their bodies and lead to a much better drum corps experience. Not to naysay at all. :) I'm hoping you knock this one out of the park! Just curious about how you keep the visual side and performer health considered while making the horns. The Yamaha tubas are absolutely lighter than the others (particularly Jupiter), but they don't sound anywhere near as good overall. That said, the issue with the ergonomic difference is one not of overall weight, but weight distribution. Additionally, the shape of the leadpipe (the "U" on all modern tubas) really affects how easy it is to hold and sling the horn around. Having to break the wrist angle to play it is just awful. If manufactures ever figure out how to go back to the "S" leadpipes of the G-bugle days, they'll have a winner on their hands. Vance has said he's using the K-90 (the single best marching contra bass/tuba ever made, bar none) so I'm hoping he figures out how to solve this leadpipe issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrothgar15 Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 Vance for President imo. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 The Yamaha is about 22 lbs. King (four valves) and Jupiter is around 24.x lbs. I consulted many contra players during the initial design phase, they all explained to me that it's not the size that matters, it's the weight and balance. They joked - if the smaller, poorer corps have no choice but to put those heavy Jupiters on 16 years old kids, my upcoming 5/4 will be breeze for them to use.The first prototype we put together is about 24lbs, and that's with temporary parts from our concert tubas. What we did was rebuilding the Bb inner branches using the K90 outer wrap. Our goal is to get it below 23lbs and I don't think it will be a problem. One way to ease up the weight is to do lighter plating. We are tossing around the idea to do a two-stages silver plating, I will explain that later if that is the decision.Regardless, it's nice chatting, if any of you guys get to see the Raiders, please post your feedback here. I wouldn't see them till late July, 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffBanyots Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 If manufactures ever figure out how to go back to the "S" leadpipes of the G-bugle days, they'll have a winner on their hands. They already have that, attached to the best marching horn out there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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