Jurassic Lancer Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 By the way...how's Wonderland treating you?? I don't know about Stu, but my unicorn has been munching on my rainbow lately. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 By the way...how's Wonderland treating you?? Life is treating me just fine, thank you. By the way, I have won Gold on the national scale with a staff that adheres to Integrity, but I also quit a team that ended up winning Gold because the staff exhibited unprincipled deceit behind the scenes. Moreover, I would rather finish last with honor than first with dishonor. So, yeah, wonderful is treating me well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillis35 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 What you wrote may be the simplest way but is not necessarily the best way. An alternate is a person who has spent a massive amount of money, time, energy, and commitment to the cause of a particular organization;,and in this case the person is a youth not an adult 'professional'. That commitment put forth by the youth should and must be honored. So let's say the alternate is a good brass player, not the best player but good enough to be a part of the team, and the lead trumpet had to leave; the best, not the simplest, but the best scenario would be to move the best 1st trumpet to the lead soloist position and maybe put the best 2nd part player on 1st part then place the alternate into the 2nd part position. Excellent points, and I'm not going to event attempt to argue the first point you make because there is a lot of money involved and I totally agree. Alternates who have paid a full tuition, or even 3/4th tuition deserve consideration. You mention how the youth is not an adult, a professional. And I agree with that, but at the high-end of DCI competition it certainly seems more professional. All I'm saying is that from an instructor perspective, if a group lost their best baritone or trumpet or tuba, they will naturally want to fill that spot with someone equally as good without shifting other performers around who already know the show visually and musically. It's not fair at all, but this is a highly competitive activity and we have seen some nasty things from all these corps when trying to win at all costs. Personally I would not do that to an alternate. I figure you have alternates for a reason. If I lose my best player in a section, I bump a current player up, add an alternate, and then consider adjusting the drill if need be. Probably the greater and more concerning question would be "why have alternates if they are not qualified and if you are reluctant to use them?" As for the specific example given by the OP, there is likely more to the story, so unless the Cavaliers come out with an official statement, I think it's bad form to throw any blame their way. I have no knowledge of what happened there, but in theory I agree with you about alternates. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 ... The statement is often made "We don't wish to get involved in individual organizational matters," and while then re-asserting their stance that such (suddenly bringing in the outside "ringer" over the long-standing member) shouldn't exist, their assertion is often met with a wry smile and a knowing wink.... "Evil prospers when good men do nothing" - John Philpot Curran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornTeacher Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) Life is treating me just fine, thank you. By the way, I have won Gold on the national scale with a staff that adheres to Integrity, but I also quit a team that ended up winning Gold because the staff exhibited unprincipled deceit behind the scenes. Moreover, I would rather finish last with honor than first with dishonor. So, yeah, wonderful is treating me well. As to my "Wonderland" response, let me be the first to admit that I was most probably wrong in responding to you in that manner. Therefore, please accept my admission as such, and my sincere apologies to you for doing so. I would love -- dearly so -- to live in an ideal world. A world in which rules and guidelines are never broken or not followed. A world in which ethics, morality, sportsmanship, and the "spirit of fair play" are not only always followed, but maintained and followed by all. A world in which the ultimate rewards to an individual are always based on achieving the very best that one can achieve, and based upon the amount of growth one experiences given the obstacles with which one is confronted. A world in which "Gold" is based as much on that which leads to even further growth and the enjoyment of life, and less upon the simple "placement of the day." Or to quote the late Dr. King: "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." All of that being said, let's now cut to the chase... A. Rules and/or guidelines are broken...all the time. Whether they be of a legal, ethical, moral, or spiritual nature. It's simply human nature -- the desire to "win" or "get ahead" in many individuals overtakes what would otherwise be pure and rational thought. B. Not everybody agrees with any thought, word, or action posed and imposed by another individual. For every parent or fan who stands up and says "It isn't fair. That kid was wronged by his teacher, coach, or general leadership.", there will be another who will stand up and say "Who cares?? All the other kids have been busting their butts to win -- and if adding this other new kid will help the team, then we're all for it." Personally, I am generally not of this philosophy -- but there are also times in which I can understand it being taken. And when dealing with "team" organizations, there is a very difficult fine line to be walked between the good of the individual and the good of all. Sometimes, what is good for the individual may not be for the good of the all. And conversely, there are instances where what is best for the all may not necessarily be the best for an individual. C. If the points in both A and B are a given, it is therefore also a given that the actions do occur. If they never occurred, then there would be no need for the rules or guidelines in the first place. A "65 Miles Per Hour Speed Limit" exists simply because if it did not exist, then people would simply drive faster. If the average passenger vehicle's maximum speed was 55 miles per hour, then there would be no need for a speed "limit" of 65, would there? D) As pointed out earlier on this thread, it was contended and maintained that we generally don't know the fullest extent of the given situation leading to the original posting. If we are not fully informed of both/all sides of an issue, then the ensuing discussion is of little practical value, and is little more than an exercise in Forensics. Stu -- Neither Mike D. or I, at any time, spoke out in defense of robbing an individual of his or her humanity, rights, privileges, or fairness as to the issue. Neither did we in any way speak in support of the practice taking place against any individual. To say or even infer that we did so makes you every bit as guilty as I was in my response to you. I thought I was pretty clear in my original post that I was speaking merely from the experience of seeing these type of things being done -- not that I was in philosophical or practical agreement with such actions taking place. I, too, believe in integrity, as I'm sure most of us on here do. I try to teach it to my kids -- ALL the time. You strive to win; but when the other guy beats you, it is with grace and good will that you are the very first in line to shake his hand and say "Congratulations. You were better than me today. Nice job." And mean it. I applaud you on your past record of success, and respect you for it. And I respect you even more for maintaining and teaching your obvious moral, ethical, supportive, and enriching viewpoint. Edited June 8, 2016 by HornTeacher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 As to my "Wonderland" response, let me be the first to admit that I was most probably wrong in responding to you in that manner. Therefore, please accept my admission as such, and my sincere apologies to you for doing so. I would love -- dearly so -- to live in an ideal world. A world in which rules and guidelines are never broken or not followed. A world in which ethics, morality, sportsmanship, and the "spirit of fair play" are not only always followed, but maintained and followed by all. A world in which the ultimate rewards to an individual are always based on achieving the very best that one can achieve, and based upon the amount of growth one experiences given the obstacles with which one is confronted. A world in which "Gold" is based as much on that which leads to even further growth and the enjoyment of life, and less upon the simple "placement of the day." Or to quote the late Dr. King: "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." All of that being said, let's now cut to the chase... A. Rules and/or guidelines are broken...all the time. Whether they be of a legal, ethical, moral, or spiritual nature. It's simply human nature -- the desire to "win" or "get ahead" in many individuals overtakes what would otherwise be pure and rational thought. B. Not everybody agrees with any thought, word, or action posed and imposed by another individual. For every parent or fan who stands up and says "It isn't fair. That kid was wronged by his teacher, coach, or general leadership.", there will be another who will stand up and say "Who cares?? All the other kids have been busting their butts to win -- and if adding this other new kid will help the team, then we're all for it." Personally, I am generally not of this philosophy -- but there are also times in which I can understand it being taken. And when dealing with "team" organizations, there is a very difficult fine line to be walked between the good of the individual and the good of all. Sometimes, what is good for the individual may not be for the good of the all. And conversely, there are instances where what is best for the all may not necessarily be the best for an individual. C. If the points in both A and B are a given, it is therefore also a given that the actions do occur. If they never occurred, then there would be no need for the rules or guidelines in the first place. A "65 Miles Per Hour Speed Limit" exists simply because if it did not exist, then people would simply drive faster. If the average passenger vehicle's maximum speed was 55 miles per hour, then there would be no need for a speed "limit" of 65, would there? D) As pointed out earlier on this thread, it was contended and maintained that we generally don't know the fullest extent of the given situation leading to the original posting. If we are not fully informed of both/all sides of an issue, then the ensuing discussion is of little practical value, and is little more than an exercise in Forensics. Stu -- Neither Mike D. or I, at any time, spoke out in defense of robbing an individual of his or her humanity, rights, privileges, or fairness as to the issue. Neither did we in any way speak in support of the practice taking place against any individual. To say or even infer that we did so makes you every bit as guilty as I was in my response to you. I thought I was pretty clear in my original post that I was speaking merely from the experience of seeing these type of things being done -- not that I was in philosophical or practical agreement with such actions taking place. I, too, believe in integrity, as I'm sure most of us on here do. I try to teach it to my kids -- ALL the time. You strive to win; but when the other guy beats you, it is with grace and good will that you are the very first in line to shake his hand and say "Congratulations. You were better than me today. Nice job." And mean it. I applaud you on your past record of success, and respect you for it. And I respect you even more for maintaining and teaching your obvious moral, ethical, supportive, and enriching viewpoint. 1) No we do not live in an ideal world, nor are any of us perfect. However, we certainly can strive as an individual to always attempt to attain that ideal for ourselves. We as individuals can live by the standards of rules and integrity even if others do not; even if that costs us the gold. It all depends what is personally important. And as to teaching kids: words alone do not teach; our actions as adults based on the words is what actually teaches kids. 2) Rules within a competition are not 'imposed' simply because nobody is ever compelled/forced to be a part of that competition. While everyone may not agree with every rule within a competition those who choose to engage in that competition should and must agree to 'abide by' the rules. And those who choose to break them should and must be exposed and punished accordingly. 3) I did not mean to imply that you advocated any competitive deceit; and if you took it that way I am sorry. You also said that you try to be a person of integrity but you also understand why people are deceitful in the name of winning. Well I also understand why people are dishonest; they choose evil over righteousness in the name of getting a trophy. But I choose to follow the advice of Curran and will address competitive deceit; first privately to the person being dishonest hoping that will rectify the situation, then if that does not work, expose them to the competitive sanctioning body; even if it costs me my job. 4) I agree that we do not know the full story behind the Cavaliers posting; that is why I have not addressed this issue in a Cavalier specific manner but in a general way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Holland Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 But in all other legitimate competitive youth sanctioning bodies the rule is pull from your existing roster or have a hole; period, end of story, or face sanctioning body punishment. That is the rule because too many adults will and do attempt to manipulate the game by slyly recruiting hot-shot players who are not on the roster in the name of winning the gold. however, once you get to June, and that super awesome trumpet breaks an ankle. and your third trumpet tears an ACL, you move up your next lead trumpet and use up your high brass alternate, what do you do? it early enough for someone to learn the parts and drill. Do you put that bari/tuba alternate into a position where they won't have the chops, and will basically march silently, AND now you'll be down someone in case your tuba or bari go down? Or do you plug that alternate in while you find a trumpet player, and hold them in reserve? It's always a gamble. as someone who's seen it happen, its tough to get a lead trumpet with the fund and will to march in June/July. You usually don't throw a spot filler in until Mid July. but there's no reason to march a hole if you don't have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Interesting responses. So, unofficially behind the scenes in competitive youth activities such as DCI... having recruitment Integrity, Honor, Righteousness, Virtue, Honesty, and Decency, but possibly missing Finals, is something to avoid; and unofficially behind the curtain being Devious, Unprincipled, Dishonest, Deceitful, Fraudulent, and Duplicitous in recruitment, in the name of possibly winning the Gold, is a wink, wink we will turn our heads ok way of doing business. Hmmmm. By the way: with most State Athletic Associations as well as the NCAA, American Legion Baseball, etc... when a team is caught by the sanctioning body violating those recruitment ethics, the sanctioning bodies do not look the other way, that team is rightly punished in a punitive manner irrespective if it was done on purpose or not. Well, the situations in my post exist in two ways....those that are illegal within the state's athletic association, and those that are not illegal at all. When an illegal act is uncovered...yes, 1000% throw the book at them and make the biggest examples you can to try and cut down on those situations around the state. If it is not an illegal act, than it becomes fuzzier. Life is not as hard and fast as you intimate above. Take a private tuition-charging school....they are free to recruit whomever they so choose to attend their school. Sometimes it is a basketball phenom...or football...or tennis...or....??? The kids that may be in the starter spot this year...or was working up to the starter spot...may be aced out. Do I personally like it? No. Is it legal? If done the right way, yes. Is it ethical? Again...fuzziness comes into play. I might say no, while others may say yes. The kid is getting a good education at a private school, in addition to playing a varsity sport...often times...these are kids are from depressed areas or even foreign countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Most corps (including every corps I've ever worked for, DCI and DCA) have established alternate polices that are written down, and are understood by everyone involved. That's important in order to be both above board and held accountable (the corps ant the members). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 (edited) however, once you get to June, and that super awesome trumpet breaks an ankle. and your third trumpet tears an ACL, you move up your next lead trumpet and use up your high brass alternate, what do you do? it early enough for someone to learn the parts and drill. Do you put that bari/tuba alternate into a position where they won't have the chops, and will basically march silently, AND now you'll be down someone in case your tuba or bari go down? Or do you plug that alternate in while you find a trumpet player, and hold them in reserve? It's always a gamble. as someone who's seen it happen, its tough to get a lead trumpet with the fund and will to march in June/July. You usually don't throw a spot filler in until Mid July. but there's no reason to march a hole if you don't have to. What you do: a) If you have all on your roster in performance spots, and no alternates, you have the second best trumpet player who has busted his/her butt for the family move up to the super-duper position, and either march a hole, adjust the drill to close the hole, or seek out someone new to fill the subsequent lower open position(s)... or b) However, if you do have alternates you place the next best trumpet player who has busted his/her butt for the family in the super-duper position and then place the alternates in the best positions possible. What you do 'not' do) Seek out an experienced hot-shot outside trumpet player who has not given any time, any effort, nor any sacrifice to your family whatsoever to fill that super-duper position, then tell the second best trumpeter to get over it, and leave the alternate who has given time, has given money, has given effort, and has given sacrifice to the family out in the cold to go suck an egg. Edited June 9, 2016 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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