Discussion about order of performance

[MikeRapp]

Someone posted (as someone always does) that they were disappointed at how little change there seems to be in scoring order from one year to the next. There are a lot of ways you could discuss this, but I think most everyone would agree that this is fundamentally problematic for DCI if they hope to expand the activity at a (more) rapid pace.

Given that you always want to reward the best show, regardless of who performs it, what is the thinking behind always sticking to a performance order that reflects past show point totals? I get that this sort of works best for the crowd, as we're all more likely to stick around to see the leaders if they perform last, but it also seems to inevitably build in score tiers that become a self-fulfilling prophecy as the season progresses.

I know in the past there have been shows where they intentionally had corps perform in "random" order. Why would some sort of middle ground not be a good idea—split the show into two halves, and have the halves perform in random order?

It seems very unfair to see, for example, Crossmen almost always performing just before or just after intermission. That sucks for their kids, for obvious reasons.

Thoughts from those with a ton more experience than I have?

[BlueStainGlass]

If you look at the west coast shows BK and Madison have been mixed in before and after BD and SCV. I think it all comes down to home show and show coordinator.

[MikeRapp]

But it seems like the de facto leaders always play last. I get it, I think, it builds momentum for the night. But I don't think anyone would argue that it doesn't build in to the scoring. If you say, it helps judging because you don't want to set the bar too high or too low—that pretty much proves my point: It's already predetermined (mentally and emotionally) who will finish first.

If Crossmen were allowed to finish a show, instead of seemingly always fighting intermission, to what extent might that help their scoring?

[jwillis35]

Someone posted (as someone always does) that they were disappointed at how little change there seems to be in scoring order from one year to the next. There are a lot of ways you could discuss this, but I think most everyone would agree that this is fundamentally problematic for DCI if they hope to expand the activity at a (more) rapid pace.

Order of performance has less impact on scores than most might think. I doubt everyone agrees that order of performance is a fundamental problem. Some do, but you say "most everyone would agree" and I think that is flawed thinking. Also, order of performance has little to do with expanding the activity.

There are some fluctuations with order of performance, whether it's a home show for a certain corps in which they get to perform last, or perhaps when a corps travels way out of their region (like Madison) and the show sponsors try to mix it up as a thank you for attending.

But by and large order of performance begins with rankings from last year. The regional shows begin to adjust the performance times based on what is happening during the present season, so that is good.

Judges are very good at their jobs, despite some bickering over scores, etc. BD can go on first and they are still going to win most of them. If a corps wants to adjust their performance time, they need to get better and have that show up during championship week, then the next year they have a better starting time. If your tired of a corps or two beating you and you feel it's because they get to perform after you, then you are dismissing the talents of the judges. More to the point, go get better. Period! If you're good enough it will show up on the judges sheets, and your performance order will change.

Edited June 27, 2016 by jwillis35

[BlueStainGlass]

When BD went on first at Dekalb in 2014 I believe people said it was going to hurt them and they still won. The groups it does hurt are the lower tier. Say in Iowa Colts go on last and after BD the judges have BD on the mind and then Colts have to compete with that. I think they'd rather go on after a troopers or academy than one of the top 3.

[jwillis35]

From my point of view I feel like this whole performance order argument stems from a misguided fairness issue. "Woah me, we just can't get a break. Someone just give us a better starting time and then we will beat more corps."

To me, this is what it feels like. It's as if they are saying "the judges are slotting us, not observing our capabilities. Just give us a better starting time and those same judges will see how much better we are when we go on 20 to 45 minutes later."

Quality is quality no matter what the starting time.

[Chief Guns]

When BD went on first at Dekalb in 2014 I believe people said it was going to hurt them and they still won. The groups it does hurt are the lower tier. Say in Iowa Colts go on last and after BD the judges have BD on the mind and then Colts have to compete with that. I think they'd rather go on after a troopers or academy than one of the top 3.

Actually since 2012 BD has performed first at Dekalb. They won every time except for 2013. This year in Dekalb they are performing 2nd. Pacific Crest is going first. BD has so far proven performance order doesn't matter. Cream is gonna rise to the top regardless of where they are in the performance order.

[2muchcoffeeman]

Actually since 2012 BD has performed first at Dekalb. They won every time except for 2013. This year in Dekalb they are performing 2nd. Pacific Crest is going first. BD has so far proven performance order doesn't matter. Cream is gonna rise to the top regardless of where they are in the performance order.

well, okay, point taken, but OOP must mean something or the regional/national competitions wouldn't have rules for how it is determined. Ask BD to hit the field at 10 a.m. at prelims and see whether they'd be okay with that.

Edited June 27, 2016 by 2muchcoffeeman

[Newseditor44]

The performance orders at the three west coast shows this week was all over the place. Exactly what is the complaint? SCV and BD have always been gracious to west coast "guests" and allowed them to perform late. This is a non-issue.

[ShortAndFast]

The top groups do not always perform last. There are shows every single season where they perform early. I believe the TOC shows intentionally rotate the order of appearance, for example. Regionals randomize the order within groups of corps. Historically, none of this has had a noticeable effect on either scores or placements.

The only shows where I think it matters are regionals/championships with very large lineups. It would be hard for any judge to accurately compare Blue Devils to Bluecoats if BD performed at 2:30 in the afternoon and BC at 10:00 at night.