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Discussion about order of performance


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And you think that performance order is a better explanation of this drop, rather than judges starting scores a little low in a 12 corps show that is guaranteed to have multiple top-of-box-5 performances?

I believe that a Corps that gets to start out later in performance order is more preferable for that Corps than having to go on first. As such, a random draw, via lots, that such a hypothetical draw might allow them to go on later ( if they get lucky with the draw ) is better for them , than being required to go on first. Judges are compelled to leave upward room on their sheets for future Corps performances... and most importantly the spreads. They are not under such a dynamic when they are about to give out the later performing Corps shows scores however.

The performance order does not play a major role in a Corps score and placements. And I never said as much either. I simply replied to the observation made above that performance order has little to no bearing on scores and placements. I believe it actually plays a bit of a bigger role than the poster believes. Thats why given a choice of going on first or last ( or later ) in a show for my Corps, I'll take going on last ( or later ) in performance order every time, than going on first, or early in the show.

Edited by BRASSO
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This is what I gathered when I marched a couple of years ago. Slotting cores due to performance time does happen to some extent but it does not make enough of a difference that a core can't change the rankings. By far the biggest difference that I noticed was the smaller amount of rehearsal time that the cores that regularly perform early get. 2 Hours day after day can make a HUGE difference by the end of the season.

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If I'm a judge, I want the corps who are most closely matched competing closest together, so I can compare them as accurately as possible.

And random isn't more fair, it's just more random. Mixing everyone up makes the judges job harder and, to the extent that it is beneficial to perform later, simply awards that benefit based on pure luck, which seems even less fair than basing it on prior scores the corps have worked hard to achieve.

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leaver earlier? do corps leave only their staff and drum major for retreats?

Last show I was at, the corps all pretty much left at the same time after retreat.

The wife (on tour with Spirit) would regularly stay to watch the other Corps (when no food truck duties) and would catch a ride with the Drum Majors to the next housing site. The rest of the Corps went on ahead to get a little extra floor time (sleep in the gym vs on the bus).

Edit: Apologies if this comes across as "piling on". Not meant to be.

Edited by CrownBariDad
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The point made by 3rd&10 about the shortened rehearsal days is valid...and not just limited to Pioneer. I have noticed that during the first three shows of the season, BAC's schedule has been to end rehearsal around 1:45 or 2pm each day, then ESL, travel to show site, and warm up. And yes, as far as I know, the order of appearance at non-regional shows is based on last year's finals in groups of 3. Example: 10th-12th always go on before 7-9th, etc.

I DO think the judges do a good job with this. But if I recall correctly, wasn't there an on-screen interview with Dave Gibbs at that show in Texas a few years back when BD went on first? And didn't he say something like he didn't like having to end rehearsal so early and go on during the daylight?

If I am dreaming this, someone please tell me. :)

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The wife (on tour with Spirit) would regularly stay to watch the other Corps (when no food truck duties) and would catch a ride with the Drum Majors to the next housing site. The rest of the Corps went on ahead to get a little extra floor time (sleep in the gym vs on the bus).

Edit: Apologies if this comes across as "piling on". Not meant to be.

Its ok. Its been a few seasons since I've been on tour. Usually I only get out for smatterings of it.

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Except the poor DM tends to get less sleep. LOL

I remember our DM never slept. He kept watch for those who missed curfew. Only missed that once... i think my arms still hurt from those pushups.

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If I'm a judge, I want the corps who are most closely matched competing closest together, so I can compare them as accurately as possible.

And random isn't more fair, it's just more random. Mixing everyone up makes the judges job harder and, to the extent that it is beneficial to perform later, simply awards that benefit based on pure luck, which seems even less fair than basing it on prior scores the corps have worked hard to achieve.

There are a number of factors that DCI has to consider, including what makes the most appealing show for ticket buyers. Like it or not, people aren't going to stick around if the show features lesser known corps at the end.

That said, it would seem to me that it might make more sense to have the first pre-Regional shows be "more random" and then after the first Regional, start ranking by scores as the season progresses.

It may seem trivial if you are one of the elite corps, but for those corps that always seem to be stuck performing in the first half of the show, it sure would be nice to be playing in the second half to see if you can truly compete. Seems very unfair to stick corps into predetermined boxes (literally), especially if judges are told to use those boxes as a paradigm for scoring.

And FWIW, I do not agree that order of performance doesn't effect scoring. It won't make Mandarins a medalist, but over a season it definitely could determine who is a finalist. If you look at scoring over the last decade, and view placement mobility over a season in the framework of "scoring boxes," I would guess it won't surprise anyone if you saw it is rare at best to see a corps finish the season outside of their "scoring box." To what degree this fact has impacted the talent movement and resources at the organization level, someone else would be far better to determine—but the fact that only one corps in the last (what?) 20 years has risen from newbie to elite should tell you how "pre-set" the system is to keep things as they are now.

At the end of the day, while everyone wants everyone to have an equal opportunity to succeed, life isn't fair. As someone else said, in an activity that depends on a half dozen name brands to carry the live show gate, there isn't much if any motivation to "help a brother out" if it directly threatens those six or so corps' likleyhood of medaling.

To whatever degree DCI and its members are concerned about the relative lack of change in the pecking order — and especially how few corps seem to be able to rise to the elite level — I don't honestly know. It seems to me that, frankly, DCI is de facto dictated by the desires of the six or so elite corps. Those organizations may want and need the activity to thrive to survive, but I don't expect them to vote for changes that might fundamentally impact their ability to stay on top. This isn't the NFL or MLB, you aren't managed by franchise law in the DCI. Whatever the organization wants, it can do.

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This is what I gathered when I marched a couple of years ago. Slotting cores due to performance time does happen to some extent but it does not make enough of a difference that a core can't change the rankings. By far the biggest difference that I noticed was the smaller amount of rehearsal time that the cores that regularly perform early get. 2 Hours day after day can make a HUGE difference by the end of the season.

BD, smartly, had 27 show competitions a couple of years back, winning their DCI Title. A few Corps just below them ( medals range ) had 35 show competitions that season. They needed the dough. BD didn't. BD wanted the Title, and coordinated their 8 week summer competition accordingly. Given a choice between sparsely available practice time, or performing in shows, come Finals Nite, the few tenths of a point that wins a title can be found in the cleaning phase developed at practices.

Edited by BRASSO
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