BRASSO Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 (edited) Having access to immediate show's recaps was good for a host of reasons. One reason I Iiked them, particularly for early season shows, was we could find some interesting tidbits of good info. For example, if a Corps GE Caption scores were a bit higher than their perf. and exec. caption scores, this was typically a better thing, than if it was reversed. It generally meant, the judges liked your favorite Corps show a bit better than it was currently being performed, execution wise. So if you cleaned the show's performance execution levels with the MM's at practices, there was the potential to perhaps move up in your placement pecking order in the coming weeks. Such things like this could be derived from the recaps, subsection availabilities. Edited July 6, 2016 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 I don't think they're "fiddling". I think that limited access to recaps is showing us that the judges have in fact been leaning on them in the past, and that without the crutch of knowing what a corps' previous caption results have been, the judges are making independent decisions, which shows that judging is more subjective than many people realized. That said, I'm not sure why Open Class corps are seeing bigger swings than World Class corps. One possibility is that judges are finding it easier to get ahold of previous results for the latter. I think Open Class is because people arent really sure how to judge them on the world class sheets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 The corps are seeing the recaps at the end of every show. The judges are not (theoretically). And everyone is seeing the overall scores and those in each broad category. So anything that, in the analogy of your high school band experience, affects performance times and the like, is in fact being made known to all. I do wonder: why does any particular group need to see the details of its competitors' captions to know what they themselves need to improve? Aren't the judges' comments and the group's own recaps enough? in a competitive environment, people will want to know where they stack up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 (edited) The judges should judge every show like it's the most important show in the world, not fiddle around and drop a corps 8 whole points, the members work way too hard to be let down like that. Marchers work 110%. But its hard to take the scores seriously when too many people think its proper ( or remain conspiculously silent on it ) by thinking we can judge a Drum & Bugle Corps competition without a drum judge... or without the brass judge... or without a guard judge.... or any combination loss of these 3. Is this cockamamie halfazz judging panel system giving 100% commitment to the hard working marchers, staffers ? No. Not in my view, anyway. But unless there is sufficient sentiment afloat both within and without of DCI to change this flawed system, then we will continue to be able to chuckle and to have fun watching scores go and down from nite to nite that make little to no logical and rational sense whatsoever. ( haha!) Edited July 8, 2016 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Selfishly, I'm wondering what it's going to be like to go back to my room after San Antonio, Atlanta, Allentown, and Indy and not have the Recap Roundup to do. I think I might need to take up late night model building or something, because it will just seem too darned weird to get to bed before 4:00 a.m., or to leave Lucas Oil Stadium at 3:30 a.m. and walk to my car, the last one in the parking lot. I got so used to that, I kind of looked forward to the uniqueness of the situation. I don't know yet if there will be a Recap Roundup after Finals. Some of my most intense memories are writing it while watching the Zamboni-like machine erase our hash marks from the professional field and also view the goal posts being set up for what often was an exhibition game in just a few hours. Seriously, did no one think of the effect on DCI's resident Boo? Evidently not. Imagine how late you will be up the night they release the entire season of recaps all at once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillis35 Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 (edited) Having full recaps gave people on DCP something to talk about. One night corps A beats corps B in brass and their fans are thrilled. The next show, corps B wins drums over Corps C and their fans are thrilled. It allowed us fans to follow trends, to learn a little about the intricacies of judging, and all the variables to a performance that the marching members deal with. I'm sure DCI has a good reason for doing this, and I've heard that it's more so the judges don't see them and don't know who is doing what from night to night. That may well be a good thing, but I think it pulls the competitive spirit away from the die-hard fan. Edited July 8, 2016 by jwillis35 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Not for nothing, the whole idea of not showing the recaps is a bit childish in my opinion. Especially for this activity where the vast number of performers in World Class corps are over 18, and therefore, adults. So why the need to play these coy games? I teach a high school drumline and at every competition the full scores and recaps are available to each band director. Nothing is hidden to protect anyone or prevent bias from week to week. And the results are also put on the governing body's website for all to access and see. So if high school band judges, directors and kids can handle it, why can't DCI, it's fans, performers and judges? And for those who might say "who cares, it's just high school". Placements at these regional competitions have an effect on state championship performance times, and in many cases, final placements. So it matters a great deal to those involved in those programs. Point being, if they can handle it, then DCI and all its various components can handle it. The corps are seeing the recaps at the end of every show. The judges are not (theoretically). And everyone is seeing the overall scores and those in each broad category. So anything that, in the analogy of your high school band experience, affects performance times and the like, is in fact being made known to all. I do wonder: why does any particular group need to see the details of its competitors' captions to know what they themselves need to improve? Aren't the judges' comments and the group's own recaps enough? Well, not being known by "all" as you say, if judges and fans still do not have access to them. And I'm not convinced that the judges couldn't see the full recaps if they really wanted to. So it may just be that the fans are the only group involved in the activity not getting to see them. If true, then DCI made this move solely to prevent fans from complaining, bashing, or negatively commenting about Judge X or Judge Y or this forum and others of the like. Admittedly the attacks do go over the top at times and accusations of judges bias is certainly an issue, whether founded or unfounded. Still, DCI should take note that (as with all sports and activities of a competitive or performance nature) the fans are the ones paying the bills. So if at the end of the day we are the only ones being left in the dark, then it could have a negative financial impact on the activity in years to come. I sincerely hope this is not the case. To your point though (and well received) provided the corps and staff are getting to see the full recaps and ordinals, then this would allow them to make changes based upon how they are stacking up against their peers. So glad to hear that at least that much is happening. Still, I do hope they reverse their decision and allow "all" to see the full recaps. Sorry if I wasn't clear: I meant that "all" people know enough to understand how such things as performance order at a regional is determined: that's based on the total score, not (directly) on the details in the recaps. I agree with you that, with some effort, the judges probably can see the recaps if they wish (that's why I wrote "theoretically"). As for why DCI made this move, Marie Czapinkski, a long-time DCI judge, says in a DCI podcast from January or February that the judges were told it was to help them make decisions based on the show of the night rather than previous performances, and Michael Cesario says in a June DCI article by Michael Boo that it was is to prevent corps from being "slotted" by judges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c mor Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 My opinion, (I know you're on the edge of your seat in anticipation) What we're seeing now is similar to what we had in the tick era. Then, judges had different tolerances on what constituted an error. Sometimes snare tuning **cough**Bridgemen***cough could hide errors by changing the "degree of excellence" . Now - Judges vary in their mind about what constitutes a 65, or a 70, or whatever. Each one differs in their "tolerance" as to what constitutes the box descriptors, rarely, sometimes, consistently, etc. We'll just have to put up with the situation unless they want to do things like add more judges to mitigate outliers, or change scoring to have defined skills with numerically assigned difficulty factors, or let the judges see the recaps so they can all score in the same vicinity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrownBariDad Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Having full recaps gave people on DCP something to talk about. One night corps A beats corps B in brass and their fans are thrilled. The next show, corps B wins drums over Corps C and their fans are thrilled. It allowed us fans to follow trends, to learn a little about the intricacies of judging, and all the variables to a performance that the marching members deal with. I'm sure DCI has a good reason for doing this, and I've heard that it's more so the judges don't see them and don't know who is doing what from night to night. That may well be a good thing, but I think it pulls the competitive spirit away from the die-hard fan. Conversely, if a Corps has a caption not doing so well in relation to their other captions, all the finger pointing starts over here at DCP, much to the dismay of those MM who are giving it 110% and more. While I'll miss full recaps, I won't miss the finger pointing they sometimes cause. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Conversely, if a Corps has a caption not doing so well in relation to their other captions, all the finger pointing starts over here at DCP, much to the dismay of those MM who are giving it 110% and more. While I'll miss full recaps, I won't miss the finger pointing they sometimes cause. Nailed it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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