DCI Central Florida - Lakeland, FL July 9th

[George Dixon]

That's assuming that the same corps are always in the same spots, which is clearly not true. Using the two corps I mentioned, Spirit and Crown, Spirit was 10th in 2002, and Crown was 16th. If you want feeder system in place, that's fine.

BRASSO is referring to what we essentially call "ring hoppers" - BD, Crown, Cadets - other top corps benefit from this. It's a fifty year plus tradition in the drum corps activity...

True "feeder" corps are really BD B, Cadets2 etc

[ajlemm]

I guess I don't fear that because I don't see "the spread of WGI costuming" as something to fear. I'm as big a fan of the old school drum corps show as anyone, but the reality is every activity had to evolve or it gets stale.

If that style of show is what kids want to march in, and it dramatically improves the number of marchers and the talent level overall, I say lets see what happens. The marching band we all grew up with is dead already, as high schools continue to devalue and unfund band. Many colleges don't even put their marching band on the road to away football games anymore, and hell, networks don't even show 30 seconds of halftime shows anymore.

DCI was nearly dead not so long ago, and Blue Devils reinvented the whole medium. Blue Devils were roundly criticized as ruining the activity with costumes and themes and "dance", and I don't see their success over the past decade as doing anything but helping the activity grow and evolve.

To me, these new shows require a lot more talent, and certainly more diversity of talent, to put on the field. I don't always like the end results, but I think it's certainly more interesting to see what corps come up with.

Well said.

[badoo]

BRASSO is referring to what we essentially call "ring hoppers" - BD, Crown, Cadets - other top corps benefit from this. It's a fifty year plus tradition in the drum corps activity...

True "feeder" corps are really BD B, Cadets2 etc

Yeah, I got that. I thought he was talking on a grander scale, using maybe less successful world class corps as feeders.

[ajlemm]

No, I would suggest something better than is a legitimate recognition of quality; more than one Gold Medal.

Before you dismiss this out of hand, it is foreign to Americans but not foreign to some competitions in other sports. In the ISDT (International Six Days Trial, or more recently ISDE, Google it) the winner sets the standard. He is awarded a Gold Medal and declared the Overall winner, but other riders that are within 10% of the winning time are also awarded Gold. then it's 20% for Silver, 30% for Bronze. It recognizes excellence.

I expect my suggestion to go nowhere. Drum Corps sport is too rooted in keeping bad traditions (I'm looking squarely at you Trooper's drum major walking annoyingly slowly towards DM's front and center at retreat).

But winning a Gold medal based on excellence is an idea which would be a perfect fit for Drum Corps and I believe would ramp up competitive interest by fans.

It has NO chance of being considered.

I actually really like this idea. It is similar to my state music competitions back in the day (don't know if it's still done this way). If you performed at a certain level, you would receive a superior rating, and so on. Like you said though, it probably has no chance of happening.

[BRASSO]

..

True "feeder" corps are really BD B, Cadets2 etc

No. Thats certainly not true. If BD A Corps got the bulk of their performer talent each and every seaason from BD B and BD C Corps, then your comment that these are BD A's principal " feeder Corps " would have merit. But of course, BD's principal " feeder system ", is not internal at all. Its external. its their competitors. Do the Cadets get the bulk of their performer talent each year now, from the Cadets 2 ? No. Their principal " feeder system ", is not the Cadets2 either. These Open Class, and DCA Corps are essentially then stand-a-lone Corps, serving their own mission, with their own objectives. The fact that a few wind up in BD, or Cadets, does not make these Corps their principal " feeder Corps ". Cadets and BD have their principal " feeder Corps ",.... and its not these.

Edited July 10, 2016 by BRASSO

[George Dixon]

Well said.

ehh - I'm down the middle

we have to award brass and percussion performance - and marching

that sometimes seems to fall by the wayside where corps are "emoting" for a third of the show while their horns are down or stored behind some prop

Crown maintains a good balance IMO

[NakedEye]

Does anyone else fear the implications of the Bluecoats winning a title? I love the Bluecoats show. It's my 3rd favorite show this year (see my signature) and I find what they're doing musically with electronics to be amazing. And I hope they continue with that because it's become their identity. But, I also fear that Bluecoats winning the title would encourage that type of costuming among other corps and that concerns me. I have no ill will towards the corps or its members and staff, I simply fear the spread of WGI costuming into the rest of DCI and I think the Bluecoats took it a little too far this year.

It is not really as much "WGI" costuming as it is a clothing choice that allows for them to greatly increase the responsibilities of the performers. You can't necessarily appreciate this until you see them in person. I wasn't sure I was sold on the look, especially the lack of hat, until I saw them up close, but my mind is now changed. The Bluecoats hornline moves well. VERY well, to the point of being better than some color guards.

I attended the show with a longtime friend who was in several of the greatest Cadets guards and went on to have a long career as a professional dancer. We both had the same impression: they are doing complex body movement at a high level, which shows a strong foundation in dance training. When the horns first emerge from behind the slide in a block, there a complicated sequence that ends with them essentiall rolling onto their heads with legs in the air.

Not possible with a hat. Nor is the easy way they emerge at the top of, and then slide down the slides.

It's good stuff and allows them to seamlessly add a whole new dimension of difficulty and interest to their performance, without clunky costume changes. They can snap into rigid "horns up" mode, or dissolve into interpretive dance on a moment's notice. Maximum flexibility for whatever the show calls for.

Bottom line: they are doing it for the RIGHT reasons, based on sound design choices and the enhancement it can bring. Now what the bandwagon hordes do in response is anyone's guess. If you aren't going to attempt the level of stuff they are doing, stick with a jacket and hat.

Those worrying about budget disaster shouldn't. All these top corps have sponsorship deals which greatly reduces or eliminates the cost. Even with that, a spandex shirt/biketard and pants is no more expensive than a new outfit from the mall. This is not the same as the heavy, tailored coats of old that had to last 10 years becasue they cost a fortune. Even with the eventual trickle down into the band world, the price of entry and cost of maintenance for these wash-n-wear things is so much less, that it's not a killer.

Now does it also sustain the "military industrial complex" of the FJMs of the world? Absolutely, but that is a separate discussion.

[Tim K]

No. Thats certainly not true. If BD A Corps got the bulk of their performer talent each and every seaason from BD B and BD C Corps, then your comment that these are BD A's principal " feeder Corps " would have merit. But of course, BD's principal " feeder system ", is not internal at all. Its external. its their competitors. Do the Cadets get the bulk of their performer talent each year now, from the Cadets 2 ? No. Their principal " feeder system ", is not the Cadets2 either. These Open Class, and DCA Corps are essentially then stand-a-lone Corps, serving their own mission, with their own objectives. The fact that a few wind up in BD, or Cadets, does not make these Corps their principal " feeder Corps ". Cadets and BD have their principal " feeder Corps ",.... and its not these.

I agree that Blue Devils C and B are not feeder corps for Blue Devils in the strictest sense, and both Blue Devils and Blue Devils B require auditions. But there have been other threads regarding this subject where people who know the Blue Devils organization have claimed that matching with BDB has helped eventually March with BD. My guess would be that BD pays close attention to the talent in the B corps.

I have never seen any numbers regarding Cadets2 to Cadets, but Cadets2 was never tended to be a feeder corps. I seem to remember George Hopkins himself saying the intention of Cadets2 was to provide a Cadets like experience for those who want to march but have work or school commitments.

[Fangirl71]

I love this forum and I respect and agree with all comments ... I think the open class as it is now has been overlooked and underrated. Essentially they are feeder corps although they don't like to be viewed that way, but the strengths in these groups are undervalued. They face the same struggles as world-class corps, the same amount of practice but with less funding. They have the same goals to compete and hit the same glass ceilings with the BDB & SCVC. There's also the ones that have aspirations to one day be world-class but where does that leave the field for growth within this already tightly competitive class. I kind of like a third tier as it was called because otherwise it makes the whole system unbalanced.

[Phantom1701]

Since everyone seems to be referencing WGI anyway, what about this breaking up the divisions like WGI does in the form of World, Open, etcs, but with a 3rd hybrid division. For instance:

-World Performance Class- Unique judging sheets. More theatrical centered show concepts with judging system that encompasses compulsory elements such as specific guard equipment/weapons/tosses, length of overall show and brass instrumentation. Only 50% of the music has to be performer generated (non-electronic based). Less requirement (50% or less) for actual formation marching and more emphasis on dance, body movement, theater staging, etc. No limit to the number or size of props.

-World Class - Unique judging sheets. Traditional marching show concepts that encompasses primarily (80%+) performer generated music through traditional brass and percussion instruments. Emphasis of marching forms and movement while playing. Limit on size and number of props. Compulsory elements in the form of length of show, brass/percussion instrumentation and use of guard equipment/tosses.

-Open Class - Same as World except less requirements on the length of the show, number of props, and guard equipment/tosses that are required to max each box. Obviously groups can choose to do more, but like in WGi risk getting "bumped up" to the "World Class" if they are overachieving as compared their peers in this division.

Obviously the individual class requirements could be anything. I'm just throwing these ideas out there for the sake of discussion and what separate classes could look like that reward very different things. Because let's face it, in the modern era most corps will do little more than be the warmup acts for the big 3, maybe big 4 or 5. Because I can't ever see Phantom Regiment doing a show like Downside Up (at least not very well). And if that is going to be the standard, then the activity is going to lose whatever competitive flavor it has left, which isn't much these days. At least not without the more traditional corps abandoning their traditions and conform to the new standards. So perhaps it is time to start thinking about separating classes by design, elements, sheets, and overall intent.