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Percussion: Overall Placements


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It's true; I'm a bass drummer, and we (along with the quads) simply called them "glories"

Glory boys!

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I guess my legit question to folks doubting the process or the ranking/rating of the sections is this:

When you're talking about placements tell me explicitly why you think a design is better than another in great detail. What, in your opinion for example, makes Cadets better-than-fifth place: tell me whom they're better than design-wise & what explicit aspects about their design are superior to their competitors?

Bless your heart for asking this question. I would love to hear lots more from intelligent observers about what qualities, strengths and weaknesses distinguish the various percussion sections (along the lines of what Naked Eye has written on these forums about guard).

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However...Nobody on here said that lot videos are the sole basis upon which to gauge drumlines in their assessments and commentary on them. The" HUGE disadvantage' then goes to the respondant that does not reply to what actually was said, but instead responds in reply to what was said in partial only. My assessment that Show Design pushed the Cadets down to " 5th place " this year in Percussion was based upon lots videos on youtube AND from th live views at the lots, AND in live assessments of their line, MARCHING their percussion performances in shows I attended with Cadets in the show ( 3 ) and on the 7 live feeds from shows on the DCI Network in which Cadets drumline marched their shows, and I saw them there as well. This was what was said above. The notion that lots alone are a good guage of drumlines was even mentioned with its potential drawbacks with it alone as a gauge above as well above.

Nobody said that lot videos are the sole basis upon which to gauge drumlins, but you, in fact, did say:

"my ears and eyes tell me that the Cadets had a far better drumline than " 5th " place from watching their line play on youtube. Also, for perspective, just a couple of years back, when the Bluecoats Show Design was not quite as good as this years, their Drumline ( still found there on youtube ) was WAYYY better than they were getting credit for. I personally do not think that this season's Bluecoats percussion line was as good as that of just 2 years ago. ( people here can youtube the 2 Bluecoat lines, and decide what they think as well)."

Which says to me that you think YOU can tell from lot videos how good a drum line is. We can argue those merits all day long. With you being a brass guy, I'm going to say I'm pretty skeptical your ears are at that level, considering most drummers will tell you that Youtube lot videos are a dodgy way to evaluate without seeing it on the move.

Are there things to be learned from those videos? Sure. I love watching them to see what lines are doing, see their progress from week to week in terms of development, etc. It tells me precisely nothing about how well they play in the actual show.

All of that doesn't even mention the fact that that you can't find a lot of front ensemble videos on youtube, and since they are half the caption, that is a significant issue with that method of evaluation.

That being said, the percussion judge isn't paying any attention to characters on the field, or drill design, or brass nuances. They are busy judging the percussion section they are seeing. There are plenty of things going on in modern percussion design that there's not a lot of time to sit back and notice any of the rest of the show design itself. This is particularly true of the field judges, who literally CAN'T judge show design, as they don't have a perspective for that.

IF the show design has any bearing on the results (and that's a pretty big if), those effects are marginal at best. You may disagree with the results, and that's fine. But the judges are judging percussion, not show design.

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As a drummer, I can confirm that this is totally correct. Where two or more drummers gather to talk about drumlines, lot videos will be watched. Yes, the movement does make it a somewhat different animal, but what we're talking about is how good a drumline is, not how well they contribute to the show. Plus, a dirty drumline can hide behind the hornline. And so, although I love crown (they're my favorite group), there is no way in heck that they are better than the cadets. The idea is laughable; you guys should watch some lot videos yourself.

Not somewhat. Completely different. The difference has nothing to do with how it contributes to the show. That actually doesn't even appear on the sheet.

As for your assessment of Crown vs the Cadets, that's your opinion. From what I saw this year, Cadets had issues executing on the move in some places, and Crown did not. This was far and away the best Crown drumline I've seen in quite some time. I wasn't there for championships week, so I don't know whether or not Crown was better through the week, but "laughable"? This is either hyperbole, or bias. One or the other.

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This 3 night average seems lame to me. The Warriors should have won because they had a better record... etc.

Then again .....bringing it all on finals night just seems so...Blue Devils

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This 3 night average seems lame to me. The Warriors should have won because they had a better record... etc.

Then again .....bringing it all on finals night just seems so...Blue Devils

Uh oh, be quiet everybody. Flammaster is being a sore loser again.

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Jeff is right: no

There is zero context: no movement; no actual performing (no stress of competing on members, for example); and as you said previously no front ensemble.

Those are HUGE disparities between in the lot and on the field, and anyone trying to compare raking/rating on field based on in the lot videos will always be at a HUGE disadvantage.

Thats not entirely accurate at all however. If drummers skills can only be evaluated in field competition, than every off season camp tryout would have every drummer evaluated by staff on a football field, and in movement while playing on the football field throughout the evaluation process. But most don't. Drummers are selected ( and rejected ) primarily in a standstill competition among other drummers for a spot in line. So if staffers can make important decisions on which drummers are skilled better than other drummers from essentially a standstill, non marching environment, it most certainly calls into question that drummers abilities need to be seen in a marching environment on a football field. Most staffers don't even do this when they watch, and make assessments on the comparative abilities of drummers at camp tryouts.. If they don't see this as most critical in determining who can drum better, and make decisions on who gets a spot in the drumline and who does not, than neither do I ( nor anyone else). Again, my essential point however, hopefully not lost in all this, is that show design bleeds now into the percussion scores. Thats just my opinion. Nobody has to accept that opinion either. I make no demands that they do. its just a discussion thought, no more, no less. I think Cadets subpar show design pulled their drum scores down a bit, and into 5th place in Percussion. Can't prove it though, Can't be disproved either. So thats that, I guess.

Edited by BRASSO
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Thats not entirely accurate at all however. If drummers can only be evaluated in field competition, than every off seaon camp would have every drummer evaluated by staff on a football field, and in movement while playing. But most don't. Drummers are selected ( and rejected ) primarily in a standstill competition among other drummers for a spot in line. So if staffers can make important decisions on which drummers are skilled better than other drummers from essentially a standstill, non marching environment, it most certainly calls into question that drummers abilities need to be seen in a marching environment on a football field. Staffers don't even do this when they watch, and make assessments on the comparative abilities of drummers. If they don't see this as most critical in determining who can drum better, than neither do I ( or anyone else)

Really? How many drum corps percussion staffs have you been on? How do you know what the evaluation process is, or how members are being evaluated?

I've never auditioned at, nor taught a drum corps that didn't evaluate their drummers on the move. I don't know of a single drum corps that doesn't either.

At auditions, you're also dealing with a considerably wider range of talent. Its much easier to weed out the kids who don't have what it takes when you're not looking at groups entirely comprised of world class drum corps performers.

None of this is to mention the complex and convoluted way we (as battery instructors) find to simulate the environment and coordination on the field. From tracking, to lot drill, to rehearsing in forms, we go out of our way to simulate the environment on the field. Why would we do that if it didn't make a huge difference?

Also, now you're the one arguing against things that weren't said. Nobody is saying that the only way to evaluate drummers' abilities is on the move. We're simply saying that Youtube doesn't tell you enough to make that kind of determination.

Edited by actucker
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How do you know what the evaluation process is, or how members are being evaluated?

I've never auditioned at, nor taught a drum corps that didn't evaluate their drummers on the move. I don't know of a single drum corps that doesn't either.

. Most corps off season tryout camps do not select their ( for example ) drummers skills for a spot in line off an evaluation on a competition football field among the drummers in competition from their football field marching movements. ( which is what we are talking about here). The fact that your tryout camp asked you " to move " in your evaluation of your percussion abilities, has nothing at all to do with the commentary above that the only way to properly assess the drummers skills is " in competition on a football field " . But I just told you that most Corps staffs themselves do not even have this " football field competition " criteria process among the drummers to determine the skills of the drummers they want in line for the summer season. So if most Corps staffs themselves don't think that assessing drummers skills on a football field in competition with others is absolutely essential to that drummers skills assessments, then neither do I . So I really don't know what else to tell you.

Edited by BRASSO
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