4.15 Jump? 6-10 Scores Lower in Finals?

[VOReason]

Prelims compresses scores up. You always see some drops at finals.

Since i saw C2 at Reading, and a good live feed from finals, the jump is justified. They have the last few years shown amazing growth in August, and this year is no different.

i absolutely agree. I saw both corps early on in Nazareth. I was very impressed by Reading, and left the show with the impression that only God would beat the Bucs this year. C2...not so much. So considering that C2 was close to 2 points behind just one week ago, I was a bit surprised at the results at Rochester. But after seeing the videos, C2 took it...no doubt.

[Fran Haring]

i absolutely agree. I saw both corps early on in Nazareth. I was very impressed by Reading, and left the show with the impression that only God would beat the Bucs this year. C2...not so much. So considering that C2 was close to 2 points behind just one week ago, I was a bit surprised at the results at Rochester. But after seeing the videos, C2 took it...no doubt.

Wow... after reading this admission from you, I am now convinced that, indeed, dogs and cats can live together.

[FrankBeMe]

It's amazing what happens when I do simple math.

[jc12]

I don't know why or how scores can jump three or four points from one week to the next but i do believe the scoring system nowadays leave it open for a significant amount of personal opinion. I am an old guy and have been involved in this past-time since 1956 and those who read this will say "oh no, a tick guy, he doesn't know caca". You are probably right but I bet the scores from corp to corp were more accurate or more true in those days. I am a Caballero fan from Wisconsin-have been since the first time I saw them at the American Legion Championships, in Chicago Soldier Field 1958. They are my corp and will always be. The last time they won DCA was, I believe in 2001. In 2014 they were on the brink but got a penalty and ended up in 3rd place. They won prelims but lost in the finals. And to be honest, I can see why they are not winning. As my traveling buddy from Wisconsin told me, their shows lack the "peaks" that are needed to win, i.e. they have some high moments in the show but not enough to win. They need their "show design" guy to write those in to the show or get a new team. He is an ex-DCI and DCA M-n-M judge so he knows what he is talking about. Maybe I am getting tired of Drum Corp????

[C.Holland]

well. scores can jump because maybe one corps had the ability to change and clean better than the other.

Each show is different, and perhaps, someone outperformed the other. The same reason that Bux could go from 3 to 1 a few seasons ago.

That penalty the Cabs recieved that year, wasn't what put them in third, or even second.

Edited September 6, 2016 by C.Holland

[TomPeashey]

I smile politely at this b.....ch thread...

Quite honestly while I see a few posts from some very competent and experienced corps people combined with a few Buc supporters with obvious disappointment

I see no one with my credentials or at least as old as me... although the guy that was at 58 Chicago might be close - I hope he enjoyed the Brigadiers that day...

anyway... I have participated in - in one way or another - 50 of the 52 DCA Championships... I judged the championship 8 times... I was corps director of a top 5 corps...

Sorry folks... B....ch if you must, but the judges called this show correctly...

Furthermore, I can confirm what was suggested by Jeff or whoever earlier...

Show Dynamics and numbers management mean that a 20 corps championship requires different numbers management than a 6 corps regular season show...

It's simply necessary to get things right and that management will tend to lower numbers in the middle of the pack and compress upwards those who are in upper box 4 and box 5

It would take all night to fully explain this... but trust me... it's necessary and fact...

and also... someone was comparing this years score to last years score and basically saying they got the shaft because they KNOW they are better than last year... frankly, as for the quality of their corps they are probably correct, but that same numbers management taking in all aspects of a given nights show means that 90 in 2016 may very well be a better score than a 90 in 2015... it's just the way it is...

[Jeff Ream]

I don't know why or how scores can jump three or four points from one week to the next but i do believe the scoring system nowadays leave it open for a significant amount of personal opinion. I am an old guy and have been involved in this past-time since 1956 and those who read this will say "oh no, a tick guy, he doesn't know caca". You are probably right but I bet the scores from corp to corp were more accurate or more true in those days. I am a Caballero fan from Wisconsin-have been since the first time I saw them at the American Legion Championships, in Chicago Soldier Field 1958. They are my corp and will always be. The last time they won DCA was, I believe in 2001. In 2014 they were on the brink but got a penalty and ended up in 3rd place. They won prelims but lost in the finals. And to be honest, I can see why they are not winning. As my traveling buddy from Wisconsin told me, their shows lack the "peaks" that are needed to win, i.e. they have some high moments in the show but not enough to win. They need their "show design" guy to write those in to the show or get a new team. He is an ex-DCI and DCA M-n-M judge so he knows what he is talking about. Maybe I am getting tired of Drum Corp????

Ticks were just as subjective as why's used now. Actually more so.... The sheets today have criteria on them

[N.E. Brigand]

I am a Caballero fan from Wisconsin-have been since the first time I saw them at the American Legion Championships, in Chicago Soldier Field 1958. They are my corp and will always be. The last time they won DCA was, I believe in 2001. In 2014 they were on the brink but got a penalty and ended up in 3rd place. They won prelims but lost in the finals.

Even without the penalty, Cabs would have been (tied for) second in Finals in 2014, after having been first in Prelims.

I happen to think they should have won that year, though. And that they should have been third not fourth in 2015. But this year I agree with their placement.

And while I think Bucs ought to have won this year, you might say that Sunday's results balance out the mistake in 2014.

More generally, it can help if you think of each score as having a "margin of error": as if a score of "90" really means, "somewhere between 88.5 and 91.5". Within that range, reasonable people can come to different conclusions.

(And even outside that range, reasonable people may feel more or less in sync with what the system as a whole chooses to reward. In all the arts, a historical perspective often scoffs at the judgement of the past.)

[VOReason]

Even without the penalty, Cabs would have been (tied for) second in Finals in 2014, after having been first in Prelims.

I happen to think they should have won that year, though. And that they should have been third not fourth in 2015. But this year I agree with their placement.

And while I think Bucs ought to have won this year, you might say that Sunday's results balance out the mistake in 2014.

And here I absolutely disagree. Cabs did not have the vehicle to win in 2014. Bucs did. It took the Bucs until Big Sounds and championship weekend to tune their vehicle, but once they did, it was over. This year I still feel that Bucs had the vehicle over C2, although Bucs program seemed to have less physical demand than in recent years (a fact that helped their horn score immeasurably). C2 seemed to have their vehicle more in tune this year which allowed them to overtake the Bucs on the final weekend. C2's late season surge was very reminiscent of the Sunrisers during a few of their championship runs, most notably 1982 and 1987. But due to the very short competitive seasons in the modern DCA, I did not think that such late season runs were realistic with weekend only drum corps. I stand corrected.

Edited September 6, 2016 by VOReason

[Fran Haring]

And here I absolutely disagree. Cabs did not have the vehicle to win in 2014. Bucs did. It took the Bucs until Big Sounds and championship weekend to tune their vehicle, but once they did, it was over. This year I still feel that Bucs had the vehicle over C2, although Bucs program seemed to have less physical demand than in recent years (a fact that helped their horn score immeasurably). C2 seemed to have their vehicle more in tune this year which allowed them to overtake the Bucs on the final weekend. C2's late season surge was very reminiscent of the Sunrisers during a few of their championship runs, most notably 1982 and 1987. But due to the very short competitive seasons in the modern DCA, I did not think that such late season runs were realistic with weekend only drum corps. I stand corrected.

I hear ya.... it was all about peaking at the right time both those years. That '82 season was my last with Sun... and man, did we get it in gear down the stretch. We went from "hey... after the winter we had, we're just happy to be here" at the first show that summer, to champions at the end.

Totally agree about the "shortened season" dynamic....like you I've thought it would be tough, if not impossible, to make up that much ground anymore... but obviously, it happened this year!!!