shofmon88 Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 A youtube user just posted a few videos where they've altered the key signature of the music. What I immediately noticed was that the harmonics this produces is a rough approximation of what you used to hear with G bugle lines. I've seen people on here mention that they miss the key signatures played back in the day, and this makes me wonder what a modern brass line would sound like if they were to play a show that was pitched differently. I'm sure corps members would be able to handle a weird key signature (my high school marching band played a direct transcription of BD's Tommy. I can play along with the BD recording on my trumpet without needing to transpose. Even though we didn't place very high, I remember getting lots of comments on our sound that year, from judges and audience members alike...). Here's the video, advanced to a section I think illustrates the difference in sound well. What do you guys think, especially those of you with more experience in music theory? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shofmon88 Posted February 21, 2017 Author Share Posted February 21, 2017 I decided to play around with this myself. Adjusting a Bb line down a few semitones gives you something that sure sounds a lot like a G bugle line, whereas adjusting a G bugle line up a few semitones gives you something that sounds a lot like a Bb line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) Remember how we oftentimes hear people say... " I need to hear them a few more times "... well, that's my thought on hearing this played with the key changed. But I 'm intrigued with the sound, and actually might like it I listened to it like this for a few times in a row. Also, is it me, or in this redo, did the tempo slow down a tad on this as well ? Edited February 21, 2017 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shofmon88 Posted February 21, 2017 Author Share Posted February 21, 2017 The tempo is definitely different. That's actually the easiest way to change the pitch with a digital file. Kind of like changing the speed of a record. I'm definitely intrigued by the sound. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey408 Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 changing keys definitely will change the tone colour of a live performing line, but doing it digitally will not give you a valid ear picture of what the real sound would be, so to speak. live, changing keys means changing valveing, or keying for different notes, making them generate a different set of overtones so the overall colour will be different. you would get a much better representation of this if you could play the original score in, say sibelius or finale, then transpose the whole score and play it again. aI do that when I want to explore different colours for a chart I am writing or arranging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Basic physics applies here y'all. Transposing playback digitally, whether with a digital pitch modulator or within a key-change/playback within Finale or Sibelius, certainly does change the 'pitch'; but it does not change the 'timbre' of the sound. Why? Because for timbre change to occur the sound wave differential has to also travel differently through the actual metal instrument in which the vibrations from the sound waves are manipulated by the physics of the instrument itself not just from the pitch change via speaker outputs. So, due to the laws of physics, the only way to compare the 'timbres' of Bb and G instruments playing in the same key is to have the music played through the actual instruments. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey408 Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 agreed, I was merely saying that, with a good sample library, you would get a better idea of colour changes commensurate with key changes in general, using a good brass sample set, but most sample sets do not include G bugle in their libraries so your point about accuracy is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Maybe we should just arrange in D Minor, which I find to be the saddest of all keys, really... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Mikey408 said: agreed, I was merely saying that, with a good sample library, you would get a better idea of colour changes commensurate with key changes in general, using a good brass sample set, but most sample sets do not include G bugle in their libraries so your point about accuracy is correct. Not picking on ya, I promise! But nope again to Finale and Sibelius. With any brass instrument (let's just stick with a Bb instrument) played live, a melody played in the key of Ab and the same melody played in the key of D the color 'will' change due to the way the sound waves are manipulated by the instrument itself while traveling through the tubing combined with the different way the player's physical attributes change, such as embouchure and air passing through the trechea, larnyx, etc... None of those variances are sampled, even in the best samples, because the cost to do so would be counterproductive; thus an actual color change, or even a better idea of a color change, 'will not' occur when you just change key/playback within Finale nor Sibelius even with the best sound samples of Bb brass instruments. You may think/perceive that you are hearing a color differential within sampled playbacks, but they are not really happening via just pitch alteration within digital media. Gotta love Physics!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shofmon88 Posted February 21, 2017 Author Share Posted February 21, 2017 I'm not arguing that you can change the timbre of an instrument digitally. You can't. What I noticed was that the timbre of the music changed. There's physics there too, with different interaction of sound waves at different frequencies. Now, just one video isn't enough of a sample size, which is why I dug into my files and audio editing software and changed things myself. This effect is reproducible, different corps, different years. Go up with a G line, and it sounds like a Bb/F line. Go down with a Bb/F line, and it sounds like a G line. Obviously it isn't identical, but it makes me pose the question: Is the difference in timbre between G and Bb/F lines more to do with the key signature than the differences in the instruments themselves? No one has actually addressed this question (the "saddest key" comment comes close. Why is that? Why does that particular key sound different?) What were the most common keys (concert pitch) for G lines? Bb/F lines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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