Key signature more important than instrument?

[Mikey408]

Back when I played and did some arranging, we mostly played in g,f,or a major, or e,a d minor. I missed the change to 3 valves, so in my time, we were limited by practicality. Any note requiring the 3rd valve was not playable. As well, there were many more corps around, so the average ability didn,t come any where near the talent in brass lines today, so that played a part in the difficulty of music arranged and performed. As for the saddest key question, it could be due to conditioning. Minor keys are associated with sadness and darkness. The key of D minor is used alot in soundtrack music as it takes advantage of the lowest clear notes on the double bass, and allows for more span of orchestra for the string section, the most versatile and emotive of the orchestra. I would think that since we all have heard these sad themes in movies, and their associated music, we hear it as the saddest key? Hows that for armchair psychobabble. Anyways, it's true about D minor being one of the most poular sound track keys, That info is from a Mr Hans Zimmer.

[cowtown]

16 hours ago, shofmon88 said:

Is the difference in timbre between G and Bb/F lines more to do with the key signature than the differences in the instruments themselves?

 

 

You can’t separate them like that

What I’d suggest is listening to some encore piece and then dig out the original show versions as many corps play encores of past shows that were in G

[shofmon88]

1 hour ago, cowtown said:

You can’t separate them like that

 

 

What I’d suggest is listening to some encore piece and then dig out the original show versions as many corps play encores of past shows that were in G

 

You can't compare them like that either. Many of those encore pieces have been transposed to different keys to better suit the ranges of Bb/F instruments. 

[Hrothgar15]

1 hour ago, cowtown said:

You can’t separate them like that

 

 

What I’d suggest is listening to some encore piece and then dig out the original show versions as many corps play encores of past shows that were in G

 

Another thing to look out for is corps adapting charts they played on G to Bb/F. A lot of the time it's arranged a whole step down (as was the case Scouts 2016 vs. 1999). When Star Alumni did Porgy and Bess in 2010, it too was arranged down a whole step. From what I understand, this means the mellophone fingerings (on F now instead of G) were essentially unchanged.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Hrothgar15

[Stu]

Pick one key signature and play the same music in that same key signature using the following ensembles: Two-valve G Horn line; Three-Valve G horn line; Bb/F horn line; a digital recording of the here to mentioned horn lines which are playing the same music 'in a different key' and then digitally altering it to the chosen common key; and lastly Garritan Sampled Brass played back in Finale or Sibelius  (They will all have different 'timbre' ie 'color' even when played in the same key).  So, the only way to actually gauge how a Bb/F horn line would sound compared to a G horn line when playing the same music in the same key signature would to be to do a side-by-side test of the real instruments, not samples, and without any digital alteration in a recording.

[tesmusic]

17 minutes ago, Stu said:

Pick one key signature and play the same music in that same key signature using the following ensembles: Two-valve G Horn line; Three-Valve G horn line; Bb/F horn line; a digital recording of the here to mentioned horn lines which are playing the same music 'in a different key' and then digitally altering it to the chosen common key; and lastly Garritan Sampled Brass played back in Finale or Sibelius  (They will all have different 'timbre' ie 'color' even when played in the same key).  So, the only way to actually gauge how a Bb/F horn line would sound compared to a G horn line when playing the same music in the same key signature would to be to do a side-by-side test of the real instruments, not samples, and without any digital alteration in a recording.

Exactly.

For those that did not experience listening to live G hornlines, and only have references based on recordings, it will be almost impossible to truly compare.

The only real example, as Stu pointed out would be to have a side-by-side live comparison.

[endy29]

You're missing another quite important factor if you are attempting to re-create the G sound.  The whole line was choired in a common key.  All were in G.  All the middle voices would be off.  If trumpets were to play in the key of G as you suggest, then the mellos/french horns would be keyed in G.  This would produce a distinctly different middle voicing.  Fun idea to play with though.

 

[Mikey408]

there is a good thread about the differences between a b flat trumpet and a g soprano bugle, as well as the differences between a b flat tuba and a g contra bass somewhere on this site. Andalucia instruments is in the process of pushing b flat soprano bugles, and b flat contras back into the drum corps world.. I would think that going to these horns would purify the brass sound to more like the old days. Bigger bores, and different bell designs. Check it out. As well, we had not just mellos, but flugles and marching bell front french horns, all built based on the same characteristics as the soprano bugle, rather than their concert counterparts

 

 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Mikey408

[Kamarag]

11 hours ago, tesmusic said:

Exactly.

For those that did not experience listening to live G hornlines, and only have references based on recordings, it will be almost impossible to truly compare.

The only real example, as Stu pointed out would be to have a side-by-side live comparison.

 

Chuck Naffier actually conducted a side-by-side experiment when he was on staff with the Colts right around or shortly after the legalization of any key in 2000. He posted extensively about it on DCP not long after the site was founded a few years later. I'm not going to spend the time looking, but those posts might still be in the site's archives. 

[shofmon88]

7 hours ago, Kamarag said:

 

Chuck Naffier actually conducted a side-by-side experiment when he was on staff with the Colts right around or shortly after the legalization of any key in 2000. He posted extensively about it on DCP not long after the site was founded a few years later. I'm not going to spend the time looking, but those posts might still be in the site's archives. 

Good to know. I'll have to do a search when I'm not on my mobile.