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Why does Jersey Surf do so bad?


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38 minutes ago, Stu said:

Here is my question: Does anything you claim as why they exist, and what their mission is for, support them being designated as a 'World Class' corps competing on the stage of 'World Class' competition?

Well, apparently DCI does and that's all that matters.

Their MM's are having a ball and Surf is delivering a World Class experience in a little different way.

What's not World Class, their score?

 

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I like Surf and there is no denying that Bob Jacobs and team provide a positive experience for marching members. I do think Surf would be stronger if they started earlier. I usually see them early in the season and most years I see potential in their shows. When I see them in Allentown I find they have improved, but in some years I sense a bit of a loss of enthusiasm, the years I would exempt from this would be 2012 and 2013. I think some competitive drive could help. They entertain audiences and many people, including your's truly, love them. Let's see a bit more late season fire and see where that leads.

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Their last 4 shows were very entertaining. I'd rather watch that then anything that's won since 2008

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2 hours ago, aLittleBird said:

Every competing circuit needs a bottom rung, and I would respectfully point out that they're not even the bottom performing corps. When they were Open Class, they won a few times if memory serves. Having them WC doesn't really hurt anything.

I'm not "claiming" anything, all this information is quite accessible.

 

2 hours ago, garfield said:

Well, apparently DCI does and that's all that matters.

Their MM's are having a ball and Surf is delivering a World Class experience in a little different way.

What's not World Class, their score?

I love the performances of Jersey Surf; I love their mission to help high school aged youth have an outlet for performance; and I agree that it is up to DCI for classification.  I also agree that it is not about scores or placement, of course there will always be a last or near to last placed corps within any classification.  What it is about is the purpose of classification and category.  Giving opportunities for local youth to engage in something they would not otherwise be involved with, and making that a primary goal is perfect for Sound Sport; targeting high school aged youth and maybe some local college age in order to instruct them on the finer arts of drum corps with some semblance of competing and national touring is perfect for the Open Class. However, seeking out the best youth performers from around the world to perform in each corps; seeking to better the competitive aspects of your corps in order to go against the other best corps in the world; seeking to move up into the ranks of the WC top twelve, then the top five, then medal with a bronze or silver, then gold, and thus becoming for a moment the best in the World;  That is what makes a World Class corps and offers the youth a World Class 'experience'.  The Academy is a prime example of a recent new World Class Corps who chose to enter the World Class category; and each year they strive to move ever closer to producing the best performances in the world. Imagine a local organization each year gathering up local high school kids, starting rehearsals in late January or early February, and doing that for the purpose of performing, touring, and competing every season in the Independent World category of WGI.  How would that group be anywhere close to being a World Class ensemble, and how would that group be giving the youth performers an actual World Class Experience?

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As a parent to a returning Surf MM, I can report that the corps has alot more MMs coming back this year, so hopefully that will provide some more backbone. The show is shaping up to be really interesting and more challenging than in years past. Surf does start later than most corps (though by the time of move ins, they are rehearsing every weekend). They had one free day last summer (San Antonio) and a few laundry half days - that's it. They also have a small budget, which impacts general effect - no big ramps or annual uniform changes here. But, they do have the best food in DCI! My MM claims that the open class corps tend to score better at finals because they are judged all summer on a different scale, so when they get to finals they are competing on a blank slate. The MMs definitely wish they were scoring higher and not making semis last year was pretty hard on them. I don't think the show, though pretty good, resonated. Stay tuned for this year - definitely more contemporary.

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2 hours ago, Stu said:

 

I love the performances of Jersey Surf; I love their mission to help high school aged youth have an outlet for performance; and I agree that it is up to DCI for classification.  I also agree that it is not about scores or placement, of course there will always be a last or near to last placed corps within any classification.  What it is about is the purpose of classification and category.  Giving opportunities for local youth to engage in something they would not otherwise be involved with, and making that a primary goal is perfect for Sound Sport; targeting high school aged youth and maybe some local college age in order to instruct them on the finer arts of drum corps with some semblance of competing and national touring is perfect for the Open Class...., and doing that for the purpose of performing, touring, and competing every season in the Independent World category of WGI.  How would that group be anywhere close to being a World Class ensemble, and how would that group be giving the youth performers an actual World Class Experience?

While I agree with your sentiment (striving to move up in the standings every season) DCI does not.  WGI and DCI use the same names very differently.  Performing a (mostly) full tour on a sound financial basis is the basic requirement in DCI.  WGI's classifications are based on grouping units into competitive groupings based on well-defined criteria.  Even so there are counter-examples.  There are units in WGI World Class who don't belong there competitively but choose to self-designate just to perform (because of age-limits).  In the summer,  DCA is the only alternative for performers of any age.  

You could also consider the ∆RawScore.  17 pts for Surf vs 24 pts for the bottom of the top 12 (BAC).  Is it really that dramatic a difference?   Is the "starting score" a function of design or performer or training?  All kinds of interesting things to consider.  

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I think Jersey Surf is an example of a corps that is doing things right. I think the shows are well designed, and performed very well. I think the fact they start later than other corps shows what works best for the staff and members of the corps. I have found every one of their shows entertaining. Could they be improved if they started earlier in the year? Probably, but obviously that isn't what works best for them. It is nice to see a corps that isn't going broke, by trying whatever it takes to move up in the rankings. I would much rather see Surf performing for the next 50 years, than to see them go broke trying to make finals for a couple of seasons like so many other corps have done. And as a major fan of the activity, I am a little disappointed in the title of this thread. Why does Jersey Surf do so bad? I think Surf does a fantastic job. I think a much more appropriate title would be Why does Jersey Surf score so low? And i think part of it lies in the scoring problems that DCI has gotten into the last couple of decades. The judges don't quite know where to score corps like Surf and Pioneer. I brought this up in a thread a couple of years ago, and I think it is worth bringing up again. Surf and Pioneer usually place towards the bottom of World Class corps, but to me their scores don't add up. If you would have a show with only 3 corps, and those corps were Carolina Crown, Pioneer and Racine Scouts(3 corps that were in several competitions together during the course of the summer a couple of years ago, obviously Crown would win, Pio would be second and Racine would place 3rd. At the average show, Crown would beat Pioneer by 30 points, and Pioneer would beat Racine Scouts by about 20 points. but in reality if you look at what was put on the field, Pioneer should be scoring closer to Crown than it should be to Racine Scouts. I am not saying the Pioneer is anywhere near the level of Crown, but they should definitely be scoring closer to Crown than to Racine Scouts. So if the difference between Crown and Pioneer realistically should be 30 points then Pioneer should be 40 points ahead of Racine Scouts. So in my opinion corps like Pioneer and Jersey Surf really end up suffering in the scoring column. Just my opinion, but I think Pioneer and Surf along with other smaller corps kind of get screwed over in the long run from the judges. The placements may even be right as there are years where several Open Class corps are better than Surf or Pioneer, but the scoring margins are definitely not accurate. And that is no different than when Pioneer and Surf were Open Class/DII/III and beat several World Class/DI corps at finals week. I love the way these corps just focus on the young performers, and don't always have to worry where they will end up placement wise. If more corps had focused on this, we would probably have closer to 50 corps performing in Indy during finals week.

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Hey, I'm a MM in the mellophone section for Surf this year. It's my rookie year of drum corps, and I can already tell, despite my lack of marching experience, that Surf is a very, very special organization. Not a single person involved in the organization is in any way, shape, or form worried about the progress we're making this season thus far. We all love how it's shaping up to be and are all so thrilled to see what the rest of the season holds not just for us, but for the rest of the drum corps community. I saw someone said on the first page that maybe we and the staff are getting a little tense due to our performance level, but that's not true at all! It's a very chill environment, actually, and we're all just having fun with the music. We aren't coming into this season with a crazy goal of how many corps we can beat out, though we are hoping to make it past Thursday night this year :) And there's no doubt we'd be a little bit 'better off' if we started earlier. Our season starts a bit later than other corps because many of our members are still in high school and late graduation, finals, etc can get in the way of spring training and potentially prevent some of us from being able to march with the corps. We'd much rather start a little bit later than risk taking the experience away from some of our members. 

After talking to some parents of returning MMs, I've learned that one of Surf's biggest issues is the fact that a lot of members only stay for a year or two before going off to another higher ranked corps. However, we do have those members every year that age out with us having spent their entire marching career with Surf. 

I can promise you, you have no reason to worry about us, if you are at all!! We're not worried even a little bit, and our show is going to be great and we love it, so hopefully you will all love it, too. :)

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There are a lot of willy nilly, factually incorrect statements in this thread.  Example, Surf has never won a Div II/World Class title.  They should have in 2007, but did not.  For those of you who think they should not have scored so low the last couple of years, who should they have beaten?  2012 only the champion topped them because they were better than BDB and SCVC that year.  Nothing against Surf, my son marched there and I have toured with them.  Open class is really good and a number of them have very mature shows.  One of them moved up to World Class this year and will be at Surf's first show.  Good Luck to Surf and all corps as the preparations continue.

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12 hours ago, Stu said:

 

I love the performances of Jersey Surf; I love their mission to help high school aged youth have an outlet for performance; and I agree that it is up to DCI for classification.  I also agree that it is not about scores or placement, of course there will always be a last or near to last placed corps within any classification.  What it is about is the purpose of classification and category.  Giving opportunities for local youth to engage in something they would not otherwise be involved with, and making that a primary goal is perfect for Sound Sport; targeting high school aged youth and maybe some local college age in order to instruct them on the finer arts of drum corps with some semblance of competing and national touring is perfect for the Open Class. However, seeking out the best youth performers from around the world to perform in each corps; seeking to better the competitive aspects of your corps in order to go against the other best corps in the world; seeking to move up into the ranks of the WC top twelve, then the top five, then medal with a bronze or silver, then gold, and thus becoming for a moment the best in the World;  That is what makes a World Class corps and offers the youth a World Class 'experience'.  

As far as I know, Jersey Surf holds auditions open to people from anywhere in the world, and makes audition selections based on who they believe will be the best performers.  They seek to better the competitive aspects of their corps by hiring/retaining the best staff they can hire/retain, providing the best equipment, scheduling the best balance of contests and rehearsal time, and building their financial resources to support all those pursuits.  They seek to move as many rungs up the competitive ladder as they possibly can.  And so does every other world class corps.  So by your definition, they all offer a world class experience.

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The Academy is a prime example of a recent new World Class Corps who chose to enter the World Class category; and each year they strive to move ever closer to producing the best performances in the world. Imagine a local organization each year gathering up local high school kids, starting rehearsals in late January or early February, and doing that for the purpose of performing, touring, and competing every season in the Independent World category of WGI.  How would that group be anywhere close to being a World Class ensemble, and how would that group be giving the youth performers an actual World Class Experience?

And Academy is a prime example of how these judgments are in the eye of the beholder.  From their inception all the way until 2016, there were naysayers claiming that they were not fully deserving of World Class status for one reason or another.  Membership was too local, or too young.  Staff were not good enough.  When better staff were hired, then they were criticized for lacking staff stability/longevity.  They only toured for seven weeks instead of eight.  They only spent $800,000 instead of $900,000.  They only placed as high as 13th instead of 12th or 11th.  

Now that they are a DCI finalist, I no longer hear claims that they are not trying hard enough.

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