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Need help with BD Chop and Paste, Walk and Stand approach to design


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On 7/8/2017 at 5:59 PM, jwillis35 said:

If I can be somewhat broader in my answer to this, I think we understand the chop & paste, park & bark, stage & act or dance a lot better by reviewing what happened in the late 80s and through the 90s. 

There was a time when the "concert number" (a standstill performance) was a part of a drum corps show, and believe it or not there was a time we loved it. Garfield's 83 show changed lots of things, but it was their 1984 show that flowed so seamlessly and never stopped for a concert number. Phantom, BD, SCV, and others all had full or partial concert numbers in 1984 (as did most others), but not Garfield. It wasn't just speed that became a signature of the Cadets, but it was the flow of the show, the constant motion and movement from segment to segment without too much stopping. 

As the 80s pushed on, speeds increased and drills became even more complicated. The 1990s, and in particular 1992 - 1999, were the decade of speedy drill. The "whiplash" movement as I often call it.  One only needs to go watch Star of Indiana 1991, 1992, 1993.  The Cadets 1990 - 1999. Even BD, Phantom, Madison, SCV and others joined in. But ultimately we saw drill pushed to its max, and often times not so cleanly.  Demand was all the rage and being clean seemed secondary.  I loved the 1990s but I know I was ready for a change.

The Cavaliers introduced a subtle change in the 2000s with speedy drill done in a minimalist and layered way. It was very kaleidoscopic (like their late 80s and 90s drill was) but with faster set changes yet more manageable step sizes and control of form. They often wrote around the guard.  They dominated the early 2000s, winning 5 titles in 7 years from 2000 - 2006.  

In 2008 things changed once again with Blue Devils introducing a new style, slightly modified from their 90s style, but with less emphasis on traditional drill and more on staging, play acting, body movement, dance, and a guard-driven approach.  Even more so, however, were little things like how they handled tempo transitions, key changes, and how they featured sections of the corps. Now, in fairness, BD was always good at not following the whiplash movement; but in 2008 it was like they said "we want to rethink traditional drill and guard integration."  They did. They have since refined this style. In my opinion they have hit pure magic with it during the 2010, 2014, 2015 shows. Their 2016 production was pretty darn good as well, as was 2009.  Their 2015 show, to me, is a taste of BD at their best. 

Sometimes they are able to chop and paste a lot of goodness into a show and make it work, even make it special. Sometimes I feel they miss the mark, even if they score well. As for this year, I would not count out this show.  I watched their Rose Bowl video (on YT) and also watch SCV, and to me the Blue Devils are packing more punch in music and even in visual during the first 5 or 6 minutes. SCV packs more punch visually late in the show, and musically they are about even. However, I believe BD is slowly adding the visual pieces to the back end. I saw some changes from Stanford that were fantastic, and I do believe once they complete the show it will be wonderful. Maybe a stunner. All depends on what they do. 

Admittedly, I think the OP brings up a good point. BD's style of design is dicey. Packing so much into a show and getting the music to settle and flow is difficult. Throw in the staging, drill, guard, and props and this is where we are today in DCI.

In a nutshell, when BD gets it right, it's downright magical!  But there have been those years where the music and total visual felt like someone rambling about nothing for 2 hours. We just notice this more with BD because of their exceptional performance levels, but there are plenty of shows that fail to connect musically or visually and for which the total design is haphazard and overly spliced to pieces.  

this is a beautiful summation.

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On 7/8/2017 at 6:50 PM, Standing O said:

Im going to date my self big time but, BD used to be precision west.  Jay Murphy used to right such seamless drills, but lately?  Not such a big fan.  They continually get away with some of the worst transitions!

it's not just about drill anymore. it's staging, setting everything up for the moments.

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9 minutes ago, Guitar1974 said:

At most shows I have attended recently I have sat amongst current high school band kids, corps alumni, young kids including my own (middle school band kids)... A mixed bag of show-goers.  What do they always react to most (ooo's/aaa's, applause/etc?  Old school drum corps- cool drill, loud beautiful music, high tosses, dynamic contrast... Musical melody- big hooks.  

What draws snickers, eye rolling, and polite "golf clapping" in support?  The scatter & pose stuff referenced by the OP.  Singing/acting/horn "body sculpting"/etc.  I am not sure if most the high school kids are "hooked on the new DCI" or politely tolerate the cringe-inducing stuff for the moments of bread and butter old school drum corps bliss- those moments tend to get the best response by everyone.

I rarely ever understand the meaning behind the shows, and I doubt most fans in the stands do, either.  And honestly, as long as the music is great and the show is cool, I really don't care about the deeper meaning and I bet most others don't care, either.

The live shows I have seen this year all have some phenominal moments amongst the cringe-inducing.  But, if not liking the acting/singing/scatter/pose stuff makes you a "dinosaur" then pretty much every high school kid I have sat amongst can be added to that list- as well as my middle school kids. 

This has also been my experience over the last ten years or so.  But alas, noting personal experience as a basis for your position on various subjects will get you scoffed at by many diehard posters on DCP.

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On 7/9/2017 at 11:44 AM, Stu said:

If the design teams within DCI want to continue to move DCI into the realm of ‘progressing the art form using the vehicle of intellectual stimulation and academic edification’ more power to them.  But it is a matter of organizational identity and potential numbers within the desired fan base combined with the extreme cost of coast to coast tour production. The movers and shakers within DCI need to realize that high quality Performance ‘Entertainment’ fills 60,000 stadium venues full of fans willing to pay top dollar, whereas high quality Performance ‘Art’ appeals to far fewer people and is thus consigned to smaller Art Houses as well as the bowels of Academic Art venues; and Performance ‘Art’ mainly runs off of Grants/Benefactors not high dollar ticket sales in order to stay afloat.  So as we move forward, the powers at be within DCI better be careful because I venture to say that most who will spend $600+ on tickets, travel, motel, and food to go to Finals want to be ‘entertained’ not ‘intellectually stimulated and academically edified’.

 

yeah except DCI's attendance has been growing.

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On 7/9/2017 at 1:18 PM, Stu said:

The number of DCI fans at major shows have fluctuated somewhat over the years, but at these main shows they have mainly stayed in the realm they were back in the70's and 80's.  However as it applies to local shows, the fan base, and number of shows for that mater, have dwindled. Why? Because most fans at local shows come from family and friends; and when there are hundreds of corps with a plethora of local shows going on around the nation, that means more fans are at those shows.  And when there are so few corps today in DCI, and fewer local shows to attend, that also means fewer fans attending shows.

flawed math. attendance at What are considered like events....shows held year after year are going up. so are regionals, and of course now finals is literally going end zone to end zone at Lucas Echo. 

 

overall numbers may be down because there are fewer shows over the course of a season then back in the day, but let's be realistic, those local shows of days gone by weren't always standing room only either. Rose colored glasses have added to the number of fans in the stands BITD than really were there.

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4 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

yeah except DCI's attendance has been growing.

Yep. 

That's why I'm not buying this anecdotal evidence being presented that a majority of the fan base wants old fashioned DCI back. Audience numbers wouldn't be fluorishing if that was the case 

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9 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

yeah except DCI's attendance has been growing.

 

4 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

flawed math. attendance at What are considered like events....shows held year after year are going up. so are regionals, and of course now finals is literally going end zone to end zone at Lucas Echo. 

 

overall numbers may be down because there are fewer shows over the course of a season then back in the day, but let's be realistic, those local shows of days gone by weren't always standing room only either. Rose colored glasses have added to the number of fans in the stands BITD than really were there.

 

3 minutes ago, Cappybara said:

Yep. 

That's why I'm not buying this anecdotal evidence being presented that a majority of the fan base wants old fashioned DCI back. Audience numbers wouldn't be fluorishing if that was the case 

A) I have posted that the numbers at Finals, and Regionals for that matter, have certainly fluctuated over they years.  And yes it has been up in recent years.  But the audience has always stayed on just one side of a pro stadium, which ranges from 1/4 to 1/3 capacity depending on the stadium; which means there has not been a 'wide variance' in attendance numbers year to year to year. Once DCI comes close to filling 3/4 to an entire pro stadium I will state for the record that there is a substantive growth in attendance numbers.  But until then, the fluctuation of a few thousand +/- at the major shows from year to year to year is not really that significant.

B) I never stated that the majority of the fan base today wants old-fashioned DCI back. You are putting words in my mouth, or words in the postings, which I never uttered nor implied.

C) No rose colored glasses on my face; I never claimed that all of the local shows were standing room only; heck I even agreed that at some performances out in cow-country where the stand capacity was around 100 there were only a few in attendance.  Yet, there is no flaw in my logic in that the majority of fans at the multitude of local shows back then were family/friends of performers in the local/regional corps, that there were a plethora of corps and a plethora of local shows during that time period, and that large cohort fan base from those now defunct\ct corps is no longer in existence; which reasonably;y equates to fewer 'overall' fans attending drum corps shows across the country than in years past.

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5 minutes ago, Stu said:

 

 

A) I have posted that the numbers at Finals, and Regionals for that matter, have certainly fluctuated over they years.  And yes it has been up in recent years.  But the audience has always stayed on just one side of a pro stadium, which ranges from 1/4 to 1/3 capacity depending on the stadium; which means there has not been a 'wide variance' in attendance numbers year to year to year. Once DCI comes close to filling 3/4 to an entire pro stadium I will state for the record that there is a substantive growth in attendance numbers.  But until then, the fluctuation of a few thousand +/- at the major shows from year to year to year is not really that significant.

B) I never stated that the majority of the fan base today wants old-fashioned DCI back. You are putting words in my mouth, or words in the postings, which I never uttered nor implied.

C) No rose colored glasses on my face; I never claimed that all of the local shows were standing room only; heck I even agreed that at some performances out in cow-country where the stand capacity was around 100 there were only a few in attendance.  Yet, there is no flaw in my logic in that the majority of fans at the multitude of local shows back then were family/friends of performers in the local/regional corps, that there were a plethora of corps and a plethora of local shows during that time period, and that large cohort fan base from those now defunct\ct corps is no longer in existence; which reasonably;y equates to fewer 'overall' fans attending drum corps shows across the country than in years past.

Did I mention your name anywhere in my post? There's no words to put in anyone's mouth. If I was talking about you, I would've mentioned your name as I have been doing in other posts. 

Also, as an aside, how do you know there are less overall fans (genuine question here, are there actual figures for this?). Is it not possible that the fan base has remained the same or more but now each of the remaining corps have a much greater following? 

 

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8 minutes ago, Stu said:

 

 

A) I have posted that the numbers at Finals, and Regionals for that matter, have certainly fluctuated over they years.  And yes it has been up in recent years.  But the audience has always stayed on just one side of a pro stadium, which ranges from 1/4 to 1/3 capacity depending on the stadium; which means there has not been a 'wide variance' in attendance numbers year to year to year. Once DCI comes close to filling 3/4 to an entire pro stadium I will state for the record that there is a substantive growth in attendance numbers.  But until then, the fluctuation of a few thousand +/- at the major shows from year to year to year is not really that significant.

B) I never stated that the majority of the fan base today wants old-fashioned DCI back. You are putting words in my mouth, or words in the postings, which I never uttered nor implied.

C) No rose colored glasses on my face; I never claimed that all of the local shows were standing room only; heck I even agreed that at some performances out in cow-country where the stand capacity was around 100 there were only a few in attendance.  Yet, there is no flaw in my logic in that the majority of fans at the multitude of local shows back then were family/friends of performers in the local/regional corps, that there were a plethora of corps and a plethora of local shows during that time period, and that large cohort fan base from those now defunct\ct corps is no longer in existence; which reasonably;y equates to fewer 'overall' fans attending drum corps shows across the country than in years past.

Finals has generally been increasing since 2011...12 may have been a slight dip back, but otherwise it's been going up. Hotlanta and San Antonio keep setting records, and Allentown, while down a little last year, has been growing over the last 6 year. The big killer there has been the threat of weather.

 

DCI will never fill 3/4 of a stadium Stu because shows are meant to be viewed from the front, not tne end zone. Maybe that worked in the OTL days, but even then no because a majority of the show was designed for the front side. Show me an NFL or major college stadium where 75% of the capacity is on one side only, and I'll show you one hell of a weirdly built and most likely revenue losing venue. 

 

and there many local shows, like Eastern States or Garden state or other smaller circuits that more people on the field...in one corps...than in the stands.I remember in 1990 going to a show in Southern Pa with Cadets, Star, Crossmen etc that had more people in the corps combined than in the stands....and that was a kick ### lineup. 

 

sorry, but as usual, your logic continues to be flawed, facts thrown at you be ######

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...this thread is still going?

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