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Inconsistent guard judging


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2 minutes ago, drumcorpsfever said:

Is it possible that since guard, in the traditional sense, no longer exists in drum corps, that the judging community lacks a consistent eye in what they value as performance?

What exactly is guard anymore?

Valid questions

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31 minutes ago, drumcorpsfever said:

Is it possible that since guard, in the traditional sense, no longer exists in drum corps, that the judging community lacks a consistent eye in what they value as performance?

 

 I would tend to think so. Guard, like other sections of Corps, was probably much easier to judge BITD.  Brass all had similar instruments to compare and contrast. Same for the most part with Percussion. Guards were mostly judged on equipment work  and marching abilities Dance, staging, components were not a factor BITD. Fast forward to today however, and Guards utilize disparate equipment, involved much more in Dance, ( some now Sing ). choreography, prop utilization management and maneuverabilities, and so much, much more today than BITD. As such, it seems to me that Guard judges are now asked to assess a multiplicity of skills shown, that heretofore, they need not have been asked to assess, compare, contrast, and assign points as to which Guard overall is " better " amongst the ones before them in competition. Judges we know DO have different backgrounds, experiences, training, so its logical to presume that they bring these differences to the lens thru which they watch and evaluate all these Guards... all of whom are remarkably unlike one another in so many instances in what they portray with their " Guard " in performance. I sympathize to one degree or another with what the guard judges are being asked to do... which is essentially to compare and contrast Guards that increasingly have so much differences than commonality in their performances in competition from one another. They are all wonderful these Guards.. but so different in performance from Corps to Corps in my opinion.  I have no idea how judges can adequately score these Guards. But my knowledge on Guards is quite limited too,.,, so theres that.

Edited by BRASSO
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2 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

ticks varied from judge to judge. proven fact. next argument please

This.

And sometimes whether something was a tick, or not, depended on which uniform a given judge used to wear.  If you get my drift.  :tongue:

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6 minutes ago, Fran Haring said:

This.

And sometimes whether something was a tick, or not, depended on which uniform a given judge used to wear.  If you get my drift.  :tongue:

Are things judged more objectively under today's system?  

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2 hours ago, HockeyDad said:

Are things judged more objectively under today's system?  

My opinion...  in many cases, yes.

I am certain a return to the tick system is not the answer to anything.

Edited by Fran Haring
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3 minutes ago, Fran Haring said:

My opinion...  in many cases, yes.

I am certain a return to the tick system is not the answer to anything.

I don't think there's a way around subjective bias regardless of the judging system used.  So I don't know if the build up system is better than the tic system. That doesn't mean I advocate for returning to the tic system. 

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8 hours ago, DCI-86 said:

This year more than ever it seems a particular guard will do well or badly depending on who judges.  Now I appreciate each group should be judged for their performance on the night but I don't buy that that is the reason for judging to be all over the place in the guard caption!  One night Blue Stars beats Crown, the next they are way down and beaten by Mandarins.  One night Cadets beats Bluecoats then next they are way off the mark.  One night SCV beats BD the next they place 4th.  One day Phantom is in 8th place then next they are narrowly out of 3rd.

It seems to me that each judge has their own interpretation of the judging system and their own preferences and bias.  It's a shame that the corps will be watching carefully who is judging to determine their finals placement.  This year more than ever, guard will have a huge impact on final placements:

  • How high will Boston's place in guard?  
  • How low will Crown score? Will it cost them a silver or bronze medal?
  • Will guard end up being Cadets strength or their weakness again?  
  • Will the right judge be in place to put Mandarins' guard high enough to knock out Madison for 12th place?

All depends on who judges on the night......

I've noticed this as well and commented on it after the San Antonio show.  The issue can't be dismissed as easily as pointing to the "T" or making it about judges who have come over from WGI.  I don't think it's about differences in performance from night to night or even content.  Before this year I had never suggested that a corps score reflected a judges personal bias, but when we see such huge swings in the placement of color guards based upon who the judge is you have to consider the possibility that bias exist.

Edited by bluesman
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Oh, how I long for the days when Bill Cook had PI's confront judges who were seen dinning with Hop. What would that kind of money turn up these days?

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1 hour ago, bluesman said:

I've noticed this as well and commented on it after the San Antonio show.  The issue can't be dismissed as easily as pointing to the "T" or making it about judges who have come over from WGI.  I don't think it's about differences in performance from night to night or even content.  Before this year I had never suggested that a corps score reflected a judges personal bias, but when we see such huge swings in the placement of color guards based upon who the judge is you have to consider the possibility that bias exist.

Hmm is it that there is bias, or is it just that different judges are noticing and emphasizing different things? After all, it's impossible for one set of eyes to capture everything when it comes to guard 

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