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Bluecoats getting the shaft this year


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The placements this year are fine, they are all where they should be. Last year I thought crown should've won and Bloo in 3rd but we all have different opinions, it's called being human.

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I'm glad everyone got to say what was on their mind. In the end, did you change anyone's opinion?  Does anyone's opinion really ever change on here?  Did some judge read this thread tonight and say "gosh that post changed everything about my perspective this season and how I judge."  Probably not but at least we all got to know each other's perspective and where you're coming from.  I know drum corps taught me that I can't control what happens on the outside.  I can only control my performance.  Same thought process should happen here on DCP and just enjoy the variety of opinions without going to the extent to proving why you're right and someone else is wrong.  At least that's what I do. 

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OK, I only read the first several posts so if I am jumping in this discussion not totally informed about what has already been discussed, forgive me. As most of you know,  I am a Bluecoats homer but I refuse to get sucked into any discussion about how the judging community is screwing anybody ... even my beloved Bluecoats. The judges may not be perfect but I believe they have the best interests of the MMs at heart. I may not agree with them but I don't think they are out to screw anyone. Things may turn around a bit for Bluecoats. I was very impressed with the work they did tonight. And if they move-up it will be because they put in the work in an intelligent way. And if they don't move-up it will be because other corps were better. At least that's the way I see it. 

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12 hours ago, Midwest said:

I have participated and have been following drum corps for a very long time. I have adopted the changes over the years with open arms. I love most of those changes and have no wish to turning the clock back. I start with these points because I know some punk will accuse me of being old school or for not understanding modern drum corps. Rest assured I understand it quite well and I am very familiar with the judging sheets and scoring process. 

Having said that, it is a shame what the judges are doing to BC this year. I have watched closely all season and have seen the bias that is so obvious. It appears to me the judges have a grudge of some sort against them. Is it the guard outfits?  I read the corps changed to longer shorts due to complaints about a little butt cheek or two showing. Is it because the judges believe it is destiny for BD and SCV to be fighting it out during their anniversaries?  Maybe it is because they don't have enough pretty colors. I noticed BD has pink in their uniforms. That certainly must be worth an extra 3 or 4 points in visual. It apparently outweighs the extreme drill design BC is marching. 

Unfortunately, the scores are simply the opinion of a select few judges. They are human and have biases. This years "collective thought" appears to be against the Bluecoats. That truly is a shame given the energy and talent this corps has.  The message the judges are sending to all:  don't do anything risky, keep your drill simple and clean, focus on having a strong palette of color choices and color guard, both have more impact on your overall score then drill, brass, or percussion. Fast is old school. March slowly and precisely. When playing, be sure it is loud and try to stand still while doing so. If you are going to march at a fast tempo, be sure to do it while not playing. And finally, never ever make the young women in the guard where something feminine. Modern women are not supposed to be feminine or sexy. 

You are passionate about the corps you like and that's great, but judges aren't getting together and colluding to what you believe they are.  Remember these are human beings too, affected by many things we are as fans, but they have adjudication forms to follow, they've been through a lot of training and are the very best at what they do.  There is no "collective thought", they are interested in making the activity the best it can be.  There have been racier costuming that has gone on and racier things that have been done on the field so nothing is groundbreaking here and would not get credit because it does not convey the shows intent more than a butt cheek showing.  However I would, as a judge be wary of the edges being pushed by that and say something, if that happened.  Fast is not old school, just a tool in the tool box of a designers ideas for what they find needs to be conveyed in the music.  If BD, which I assume is the incarnate group you are complaining about, wrote their show to match up the best abilities of their kids and use things within that show to maximize what they present, isn't that as good as anything else?  They are maximizing the credit within the product that they feel is best suited to their members abilities and minimizing the things that they don't do well.  They are counting on their music to grab the GE and maximize their score, which they do well.  I don't agree with the judges giving credit where I don't think it should be given in visuals, but they are very clean and doing things extremely well.  Blue Devils are known for the ability to clean their show and make it squeak.  A lot of their membership comes up through the ranks of the best organization in Drum corps, giving them an understanding of the job each of them have to do and how important the littlest things have on the final outcome.  That along with a tremendous brass line this year is pushing them to the heights they are gaining.  Bc is having trouble cleaning things up, which makes a hard read at times for judges and, I believe, have married themselves to something that constricts what they can do visually, which is part, a big part, of the package they are presenting.  I think what they are doing is great, but in light of last years show, is not the visual/music package that generated the GE that led them to the gold medal last year.  It's a great show, could be even greater, but having something on the field that cannot be moved is a difficulty in itself.  It splits the field, splits the flow of the show and as I said earlier, constricts what can be done on the field.  Each of the top 4 shows have weaknesses this year - I thought Bluecoats show had no weakness last year.  What have they done to maximize their strengths is why the placements and scores are where they are (not that I agree with either right now, but it's falling out to that right now).  We'll see what everyone can do in these last 10 days or so to generate something that isn't being done right now and where each of them find themselves at the end of Championships will be interesting.  I remember very well, Star of Indiana coming in on a very big winning streak in 92, and were first in Quarters, send in Semis and Third at finals - Cavies finished first and Cadets second that year, so anything can happen, will it - depends on the staff and kids!

Edited by Vdad76
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25 minutes ago, Treefidy said:

You read his break down? He got what he gave, but in far more detail...

Yes I did and I agree, but again, any show can be seen for its faults especially when looking for them.  

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4 hours ago, pudding said:


Perhaps if you'd read further than "mic", you'd see that I'm not complaining about the existence of mics in and of themselves, but rather Vanguard's specific use of them to solely amplify their strongest brass players to the level of being almost equal to the entire rest of the brass section for the sole purpose of giving their brassline less musical demand. 

That you think that visual is so important that it trumps both Music and GE in terms of accreditation is laughable. There's really nothing more to say on this matter, since any time anyone brings up music to you you immediately swerve straight back to visual as if that's some kind of panacea.

Since you want a breakdown so bad, let's go. Bluecoats first:

Sure, they do a lot of standing/body movement and playing. I'll note that in the other thread, you were incredibly in favor of body movement as having superior demand to traditional marching, so in the name of consistency I'd expect you to actually like that the Bluecoats are doing body visuals while playing. That said, about 2:30 into the Bluecoats show is an extended period of marching and playing, around 190 BPM, only 16 counts of which are half time. You also conveniently ignored the rhythmically difficult section at the end of their opener, while they are doing the follow-the-leader through the prop.

Lots of body movement during the ballad, including hip movement, kneeling, and standing up. There's also marching and playing, too.

You're quick to criticize the closer. Let's examine. Sure, there's a lot of park and blow. There's also a lot of your favorite, body movement while playing. You also seem to be ignoring the last moments of the show, the unwinding drill while the full brass line is playing melodic material (or countermelodic in the case of the mellos). Also, I would note that the brass line is playing in front of the staged shotgun mics, so there is no ambient amplification at the end of the show.

Let's move on to your Vanguard, shall we?

The opening bars are just random chords. Sure, there's timing challenges, but the big thing to notice here is that the small ensemble (hereafter referred to as The 12) are playing all of the difficult parts. By the end of the opening statement, the full brassline has not played anything more rhythmically interesting than a quarter note triplet, and has not done any more difficult visual challenge than a plie and some marching while holding a long tone chord. 

Percussion break 1.

The brassline plays chords, while The 12 play triple-tonguing.

Percussion break 2.

The 12 gets featured as they stand on the props. When the rest of the brass comes in, they are immobile after having posed.

Percussion break 3 (long one this time).

The 12 plays a jazzy little number before being joined by the full brassline, which only starts playing once they hit an extended halt (the big > sign). The body movement during the halt consists of individuals swaying.

Percussion break 4.

Finally, some full brass playing and marching that's more interesting than long tones. It's short lived, though, as we quickly go back to sporadic punches in the brass and then chords while The 12 play the rip into the impact.

Percussion break 5.

Three whole seconds of sixteenth notes in the brass line as they jump back and forth before...

Theremin break 1 (Percussion break 6).

I get super excited when the brassline gets into pods, because they play interesting music (no moving, of course), but literally as soon as the third pod starts playing, we're immediately into:

Percussion break 7.

During percussion break 7, the brass moves freely into position to park and bark some ascending chugga-digga-duts. I'll allow the 16 counts of front ensemble to not be counted as a percussion break (although it is, since the next brass statement is a completely different musical idea). This next statement is a very Gaines-esque drill moment, which I enjoy, but again, the entire brass moment is only 14 seconds long before:

Percussion break 8.

Some nice brass after Percussion 8, especially with the jazz running.

This is getting tiring, so I'll stop here. You get the idea.

Any group can be broken down into faults when you look for them.  Comparing things, at times, is difficult at best, especially in this activity.  The compassion you have for Bluecoats is great, but it overwhelms the sense you have.  It's a great show, but in my opinion, is not the GE generator that down stairs up was.  Jagged edge, for me, does not give me visual/music marriage that exploded in last years show with the electricity that started from its unusual opening to the seem-less use of passages from several compositions and arrangements to the body movement, the sexy vibe of the ballad and frenzied chaos leading to a wonderful closing that left the audience wanting more.  I like the continuation of the edgy ideas in this show, but it just does not click together on all the cylinders that the staff intended and needs desperately to be cleaned up to gain its full GE.  Even with that, in what BD and Vanguard are doing in maximizing what they can do best is generating the GE, they need to cover their weaknesses (in my opinion - BD for weak visuals/design, which does however, maximize their incredible brass line and Vanguard for brass line weaknesses, covering by micing certain people to cover for trying to clean up difficult passages - something marching bands have been doing for a long time, for me - a design flaw in the show is that never lets you breath, just keeps coming at you).  They are both playing the sheets and the way things are scored, in that scores continually inflate throughout the season, whether they should or not.  This really is a seminal moment for DCI and it's judges.  Do we decide what is more important than something else on the judging forms and make it a more determining factor, such as gymnastics or skating (you have a certain score for certain moves, tricks, etc and then score on how well you do that element).  That would require a determination of many items and probably more judges.  For instance, you would have one judge looking strictly at what is done, then scoring on whether each element was done, and one strictly looking at how well it is done.  Imagine for instance, one judge is determining what elements are being done with a checklist (content) and the other judge looking at how well each was done (achievement).  It would probably require the ability to go back and immediately look at tape to determine some things.  It might also require that the show is mapped out by each corps, letting judges know that they have added an element or taken one away or simplied it. Etc.  the same would have to be done for color guard.  Music people would have to have scores and basically the upstairs judge would have to be looking at the score while the downstairs person would not have a score but would be listening to how well the corps itself, ensembles and soloists are playing - in tune, etc.  It may require more judges, equaling more cost, etc.

Edited by Vdad76
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6 hours ago, denverjohn said:

Thread titles with the word "shaft" should be avoided at all costs.

"Everybody deserves a trophy" crowd.  Afraid of debate and negativity. How dare we point out the flaws in DCI. 

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6 hours ago, Treefidy said:

You marched 2014 BC and yet you post this drivel? There's literally like 3 or 4 of you this year posting this... Cappybara bring one of the other 3. I thought I was supposed to trust your judgement on the timing of each show, but after reading this I literally have zero faith in your analysis. Not sure what your bias is, but it is clearly there. Small Brass features? Percussion features? Again, as I told you, you need to watch an SCV standstill, because you're really struggling to figure out who is actually playing and where.

As for the Bluecoats and crushing GE/Music, why? Why should they be? Literally NO JUDGE has seen it this way since a month ago when all corps were pig in the mud dirty. Now that the other shows have cleared up significantly, and the Bluecoats are still marching in mud, the pack has separated and you expect the Bluecoats to be scoring 96's in Content? Seriously? For what? 30 people running down a jagged ramp? 80 people running under/in to the jagged ramp? HUGE segments of follow the leader drill? Disjointed Fosse moves done in a completely off the dot blob? Yes, the Coats have some great, always stuck in your head MUSICAL moments. Visually, the only moment that EVER sticks in my head is the snaking drill coming to the front in the opener and closer, even then the guard is staged HORRIBLY, as they are through-out a MAJORITY of the show.

I see the potential in this show, but it's not better than third place. It's literally an upside down version of down side up...

Lol. Maybe multiple people are posting it because that's what they're experiencing from SCV's show this year? I'm typically a big Vanguard fan, but their show just completely turns me off this year. Sorry. Visually remarkable but musically unremarkable. Like many others have said, they can remember and hum plenty of musical moments from Bloo's and BD's shows but absolutely nothing from SCV. Just how it is sometimes. 

Yes, I have watched standstills, please don't insult my intelligence and ears, as I know how to use YouTube. I second the statement about the percussion features and small ensemble. 

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I'm not a big fan of the ballad amplification.  Having said that, I love the message. The song title is Grow 'till Tall. When the corps faces the back of the field, they are looking into a mirror. As young adults, they don't always see themselves as others do. They tend to see their weaknesses. The corps playing to the back of the field while hearing the music amplified out front is meant to represent this. What we all see is not always accurate. In this case what we see and hear are different. As they turn around at the very end of the ballad, things become more clear with the climax being the guard member who is lifted by those around her as she "grows till tall"

Edited by Midwest
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It's tough to repeat. Just ask Cadets and BD. People look for reasons why they can't. Pointing fingers is easy if you don't want to look at the problems. BC have reached the point that many wish they could and may never reach. Be grateful for what they have accomplished. They have a great show. BD went through 10 years of never being able to win. It happens. Cadets going through that now. Be grateful for what they have done. Go BC!!.

 

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