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A question for the purists: was there more that could have been done?


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42 minutes ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

No, don't try to isolate me and make me feel like the odd duck out here.  Thousands of people hate the push towards corps-wide winter guard outfits.  That's well documented on this site, as well as on reddit.  And that's only the thousands who have expressed their disdain for them publicly.  There's nothing 'kewl' about corps-wide bodysuits, there's nothing innovative about them, there's nothing inspiring about them.  They're sparkly pajamas.  Nothing more.  And they're a slap in the face of good taste.  Not to mention a slap in the face of 40 to 80 years of tradition.

You can't sit there and try to say that DCI isn't being sabotaged and subverted by WGI and BOA, when they're taking active measures to take the very worst aspects of those activities and shoehorn them into drum corps.

 

But you are the odd duck out here. 

As someone who is much more redditor than DCPer nowadays, but certainly have my share of DCP time, that opinion certainly isnt universal. In fact, most on reddit seem to take a more nuanced view- that while it is a shame that some 'identity' is lost, there is also a lot of gain in being able to commit completely to the show through show-specific attire. Its merely following what the guard did all those years ago when they went from wearing the corps proper uniform to wearing something that fit each show better. 

DCP certainly tilts more 'traditional' but even within the drum corps community DCP is sort of viewed as a running joke by a large percentage of people, where its well known that it tends to have the reputation for being a bunch of old fogies who can't handle any change. And the drum corps 'inside' community itself is only a fraction of the audience, making DCP a particularly extreme niche within a niche, which means it effectively means nothing. 

And its funny, all these things you say about the current attire choices... people outside the activity? They think the same thing about traditional marching band\drum corps uniforms. 

I'm not saying all changes have been great. There are some areas i wish DCI had taken more time to fully evaluate the benefit of past changes before moving farther down the path. But man, you are way out there in this thread. 

Edited by AlexL
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8 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said:

Even George Hopkins doesn't seem enamored of where DCI had gone.

Really, though, try not to go all Louise Mensch. More facts less opinion will help your case.

It's not really my case, though.  I don't have a kid marching in a corps, nor do I have a stake in placating or buttering up corps directors like a lot of folks here seem to.  All I have is a passion for an activity that no longer exists, and it no longer exists for no good reason whatsoever.

I hope you're right though.  I hope Hopkins truly does have a change of heart.  Frankly, I hope the man can't sleep at night.  I know I wouldn't be able to.  If I'd spent the past fifteen years manipulating and bullying directors into voting for whatever cockamamie initiatives I could dream up, all to the gross detriment of the activity and its long-term viability, I for one would be constantly looking over my shoulder to make sure the ghost of Geroge Zingali wasn't shaking his head at me in disgust.

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2 minutes ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

It's not really my case, though.  I don't have a kid marching in a corps, nor do I have a stake in placating or buttering up corps directors like a lot of folks here seem to.  All I have is a passion for an activity that no longer exists, and it no longer exists for no good reason whatsoever.

I hope you're right though.  I hope Hopkins truly does have a change of heart.  Frankly, I hope the man can't sleep at night.  I know I wouldn't be able to.  If I'd spent the past fifteen years manipulating and bullying directors into voting for whatever cockamamie initiatives I could dream up, all to the gross detriment of the activity and its long-term viability, I for one would be constantly looking over my shoulder to make sure the ghost of Geroge Zingali wasn't shaking his head at me in disgust.

LOL  keep going. With every post you give yourself less credibility.

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2 minutes ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

It's not really my case, though.  I don't have a kid marching in a corps, nor do I have a stake in placating or buttering up corps directors like a lot of folks here seem to.  All I have is a passion for an activity that no longer exists, and it no longer exists for no good reason whatsoever.

Most people who post to DCP have no current relationship with any corps. They genuinely enjoy most of what they see on the field these days, although they wish some things were better.

(As for what Hopkins is thinking lately, see the recent video interview with him.)

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13 minutes ago, AlexL said:

I'm not saying all changes have been great. 

THAT is where your argument ends.  You can't sit there and call me the odd duck out when you stick a big fat asterisk at the end of your reply that validates my entire point.  So many of you have done that just in the past 48 hours.  Deep down, you agree with me.  Most of you do, in fact.  But you're all so hellbent on rolling with the punches and hiding behind buzzwords like "evolve" and "change" and "education", you can't see the forest for the trees wrapped in holographic prism tape.

You and your enablers are trying to make a question of objectivity into one of subjectivity, and that's just not going to fly.  I don't expect to love every single show every single year.  But I certainly don't expect to fundamentally LOATHE every single show every year, either, all because of self-indulgent rule changes that have been massively controversial and continue to be so.

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Just now, Bobby L. Collins said:

THAT is where your argument ends.  You can't sit there and call me the odd duck out when you stick a big fat asterisk at the end of your reply that validates my entire point.  So many of you have done that just in the past 48 hours.  Deep down, you agree with me.  Most of you do, in fact.  But you're all so hellbent on rolling with the punches and hiding behind buzzwords like "evolve" and "change" and "education", you can't see the forest for the trees wrapped in holographic prism tape.

You and your enablers are trying to make a question of objectivity into one of subjectivity, and that's just not going to fly.  I don't expect to love every single show every single year.  But I certainly don't expect to fundamentally loathe every single show every year, either, all because of self-indulgent rule changes that have been massively controversial and continue to be so.

Just because i agree with a portion of your sentiment does not mean I agree with the majority of it. 

The activity will continue to evolve and change. 

And quite honestly, for as much as you talk objectivity and facts, you seem to be doing more of the opposite, presenting your opinions as facts. 

The fact is, for the vast majority of the audience, these changes arent all that controversial. Most of the controversy occurs within the 'insider' niche, meanwhile the audience apparently continues to grow and grow. 

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2 minutes ago, AlexL said:

Just because i agree with a portion of your sentiment does not mean I agree with the majority of it. 

The activity will continue to evolve and change. 

And quite honestly, for as much as you talk objectivity and facts, you seem to be doing more of the opposite, presenting your opinions as facts. 

The fact is, for the vast majority of the audience, these changes arent all that controversial. Most of the controversy occurs within the 'insider' niche, meanwhile the audience apparently continues to grow and grow. 

I'm sorry Alex, but I simply know too many fans, vets, and people involved in the activity to know that is simply not true.  EVERYONE....is talking about this stuff.  Yes, even the current members of world class and open class corps.  Like us, some like it and some don't.  Some probably won't march next year as a result of it, and some are maintaining a "wait and see" attitude.  Others love the attention, so they're fine with it.

I'm not trying to paint a picture in which there is universal condemnation of amplification/interpretive dance/avant-garde concepts/stationary trombones, but I'm not about to let you or anyone else try to delude the world at large into being led to believe that there is universal praise for it, either.  We can sit here and argue about percentages all night.  Whatever number I type, you'll want to lowball it by however many points you need for it to fit your narrative.  But I do fundamentally believe it's the majority of fans.  Otherwise, the majority of fans would be buying tickets, rather than downloading 240p videos off the internet.  And I say again that not everyone who attends competitions are fans, much less even there of their own volition.

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Just now, Bobby L. Collins said:

I'm sorry Alex, but I simply know too many fans, vets, and people involved in the activity to know that is simply not true.  EVERYONE....is talking about this stuff.  Yes, even the current members of world class and open class corps.  Like us, some like it and some don't.  Some probably won't march next year as a result of it, and some are maintaining a "wait and see" attitude.  Others love the attention, so they're fine with it.

I'm not trying to paint a picture in which there is universal condemnation of amplification/interpretive dance/avant-garde concepts/stationary trombones, but I'm not about to let you or anyone else try to delude the world at large into being led to believe that there is universal praise for it, either.  We can sit here and argue about percentages all night.  Whatever number I type, you'll want to lowball it by however many points you need for it to fit your narrative.  But I do fundamentally believe it's the majority of fans.  Otherwise, the majority of fans would be buying tickets, rather than downloading 240p videos off the internet.  And I say again that not everyone who attends competitions are fans, much less even there of their own volition.

Key words: You believe. 

You have no facts to back up any of your assertions, other than 'i believe' statements, and 'everyone i know is saying this' (its quite possible that's true, but you're just in a bubble). Meanwhile, the only numbers we really do have, attendance numbers that show that there has been growth, say differently.  Aside from contrary evidence, that is the best indicator of 'is the activity headed in the right direction'. 

And i'm going to take major issue with your assertion that people aren't marching because of these changes. 

I spent 5-6 years fairly disconnected from the activity after 2010. I was brought back in last year when my sister marched and i spent 40 days on tour driving. 

Yes, the product has changed somewhat. But the core of the drum corps experience, the hours perfecting a product, the closeness created through the crucible of 100 degree rehearsal days and long nights on the highway.. when i watched those kids coming off the field in tears, when i watched those kids in the parking lot after finals not wanting to leave each other, i could see concretely that the core of what that summer means was no different now than it was when i marched. Drum corps at its core was providing exactly the same experience that made me love it. 

This is why i will say without hesitation, anyone who would not march (or anyone who would advise them not to march) because of the changes we've seen is utterly missing the point. 

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5 minutes ago, AlexL said:

Key words: You believe. 

You have no facts to back up any of your assertions, other than 'i believe' statements, and 'everyone i know is saying this' (its quite possible that's true, but you're just in a bubble). Meanwhile, the only numbers we really do have, attendance numbers that show that there has been growth, say differently.  Aside from contrary evidence, that is the best indicator of 'is the activity headed in the right direction'. 

And i'm going to take major issue with your assertion that people aren't marching because of these changes. 

I spent 5-6 years fairly disconnected from the activity after 2010. I was brought back in last year when my sister marched and i spent 40 days on tour driving. 

Yes, the product has changed somewhat. But the core of the drum corps experience, the hours perfecting a product, the closeness created through the crucible of 100 degree rehearsal days and long nights on the highway.. when i watched those kids coming off the field in tears, when i watched those kids in the parking lot after finals not wanting to leave each other, i could see concretely that the core of what that summer means was no different now than it was when i marched. Drum corps at its core was providing exactly the same experience that made me love it. 

This is why i will say without hesitation, anyone who would not march (or anyone who would advise them not to march) because of the changes we've seen is utterly missing the point. 

Outstanding Alex.  100% agree.

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