BRASSO Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, jwillis35 said: . The shift to costumes or modified uniforms has definitely changed things. DCI tends to be a copycat league, much like the NFL. Current trends are to modify the look of your uniform for your show. With decidely mixed results..... at BEST. If attire and placements results are connected ( I believe not ), then the conclusion we draw insofar as the Cadets are concerned, is that their decision to alter their attire in midseason 2 seasons ago had led from their 1st place placement position ( at San Antonio Regionals that they won) to a plummet to 7th at the moment since having abandoned their 80 + years of their iconic Cadet styled uniform for attire. The Bluecoats went hatless in 2016 and won their 1st title. They fell to 5th here in 2017 with the " new look " of the bowler hat. Did their attire have anything to do with winning a DCI Title in 2016, and falling to 5th here in 2017 ? I don't think so. Their attire/ headgear choices was irrelevent to both season's finish, imo. The most radical change in attire and headgear for 2017 with the DCI Corps was with the Madison Scouts, imo. Their 2017 attire and headgear was totally unlike any look the Madison Scouts have had in the last 40 years. What placement effects did it have ? None. It did not move the placement dial at all for them. The Madison Scouts were a 12th-13th place Corps in 2016, and a 12th place Corps this season as well. Thats because the attire/ headgear they had on were a non factor in EITHER season's placements. We are correct that " Carolina Crown " has changed attire and headgear every season. Such annual attire and headgear change has resulted in their placing anywhere from 1st place to 33rd place in their attire/ headgear choices that take place annually with them. Likewise, the Cadets have won multiple DCI Titles in their Cadet styled attire and shako, as well as finishing out of the Top 25 in the exact same attire/ headgear. Thats easy to explain as well. This is because what Crown and Cadets had on for attire/ headgear was irrelevent to their season's placements in ANY year we want to look at from either of them. Just about EVERY DCI Corps made new choices in attire/ headgear this season over 2016. Most of it following the trend to have the attire in some manner match the Corps selected theme. If attire/ headgear choices had much of an impact on a Corps fortunes in placements, we would have witnessed much more shifts in placements/ scores.. Afterall, we just said that just about EVERY Corps changed their attire/headgear for this summer. But were there wholesale changes in placements this season over 2016 ? No.. not really. This only adds even further credence to the belief that what attire/ headgear a Corps chooses for itself, it really is mostly irrelevent to their scores/ placements. Which brings us back to the Cadets. If the Cadets have won multiple DCI Titles in their same iconic Cadet Styled uniform ( in several years, topping Corps that changed attire/ headgear every season) then the Cadets attire/ headgear change had no bearing on the placements, and they probably should have stayed with the Cadet styled attire/ headgear, for no other reason than the Corps continuation of their branding. Cadets changed their attire/headgear even multiple times in this seaaon's show too, and it likewise was irrelevent to their ultimate finish. Finally, its worth noting that the DCI winning Corps this season had the 1st quarter of their show a " retro " show.. a traditional show. Did it hurt them in the scores/placements ? No. The Corps with THE single most traditional shako in all of DCI likewise was the Blue Devils this season. The BD skinny , smallish, traditional, white plumes were as " traditional " in headgear as any Corps in DCI this season. Did it hurt them in placements/scores ? No. Did it help them in scores/. placements ? No, as well, imo. Thats because, as we should be able to readily see by NOW, what you wear for attire/ headgear is a non factor in any of these World Class/ Open Class Corps scores and placements. Its all about the Show Design, the staff instruction levels, and the marcher talent levels, and their performance levels of execution out on the field. The attire/ headgear did not make any difference in these Corps in World Class/ Open Class scores and placements for 2016, nor in 2017. Those staffers that make decisions on attire/ headgear that think they need to " follow the herd " regarding attire/ headgear choices in order to keep up, and maybe move up in scores/ placements are probably not looking at the data to see that there is no connection at all to attire/ headgear and a Corps placement prospects. The Bluecoats went hatless in 2016 and won a DCI Title. BD did NOT follow that " trend ". BD went traditional and kept the traditional shako/ plume and it had no effect whatsoever on their ability to go undefeated and win it all here again in 2017 with yet one more DCI winning title for themselves. Edited August 27, 2017 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 36 minutes ago, George Dixon said: You're missing the point. A corps staff doesn't get to hear everyone's tape - only their own. When the line they teach is being scored 8th they want to hear constructive feedback as to why - aka areas of opportunity the judge sees Then they have something useful George. I thought the constructive feedback comes in the beginning to mid season on the judge tapes as well as in critique. Just because you haven't heard this feedback on late season/end of season judging tapes doesn't mean the feedback doesn't occur. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xandandl Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Cappybara said: I thought the constructive feedback comes in the beginning to mid season on the judge tapes as well as in critique. Just because you haven't heard this feedback on late season/end of season judging tapes doesn't mean the feedback doesn't occur. But the point is that shows are constantly evolving (changes, new endings, hosing...which never gets admitted, etc.) so what the past comments have been become in some ways not relevant to the present performance the judge is evaluating. Critiques don't exist during championship week, in fact the judges are very secluded form the corps staffs** and public having their own annual meetings and such. Comments on the score sheets the last two weeks usually are one word answers at best. Your comments have a worth but George's criticism is also accurate. Not a binary world of either/or. Both aspects are true. ** yes, there were the experiments that had some of the judges go to address the finalist corps at practice to thank the mms for their efforts throughout the summer, etc. But all that led to was Albert Lo becoming a pop star god cheered by the mms back at LOS with shouts of "Lo Mein.." The experiment was soon dropped. Edited August 27, 2017 by xandandl 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Dixon Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 1 hour ago, Cappybara said: I thought the constructive feedback comes in the beginning to mid season on the judge tapes as well as in critique. Just because you haven't heard this feedback on late season/end of season judging tapes doesn't mean the feedback doesn't occur. this wasn't finals night - still time to understand and tweak things! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Dixon Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 2 hours ago, HbRJgdZHsbc said: Yeah. I got your point the first time around. I also already spoke to exactly what you said: "The comments reflect achievement, not placement. If you want to understand how they compared to the other drum corps and why there were 7 teams better and many teams worse you should listen to the tapes from the other corps. You cannot derive placement from vocabulary on a single commentary file." So let's get down to brass tacks. Judges don't compare you to another corps on a tape. It's neither appropriate nor practical. I hear what you are saying. I understand your desire for that feedback. It's just not going to happen, nor should it. Vulnerabilities and opportunities, however, are addressed throughout the season realizing there are days left. But don't expect too much of that in the last 24 hours - at that point the commentary is an appraisal of what is, not of what potential remains. Still, the best opportunities for the feedback you are interested in is the critique setting. And those candid conversations occur often up until the last 2 weeks. I wish critique would go all the way through the last "regular season" show, but that's just my preference. If you want to discuss the comparison between two or more groups, that's the only place to get it done. C'est la vie. no one said the judge should offer comments comparing the corps - geez. This is exhausting and the snarky "I got your point the first time around" missing it entirely I've also heard similar tapes from mid season - with all glowing comments It's RIDICULOUS - and really lines up perfectly with our "participation trophy society" = judge tapes should offer good, bad, and everything in between. Even finals night say a corps performance level (and competitive result) tumbles due to mental errors or ensemble tears - these should be noted on the tape so the staff understands the viewpoint and the feedback (ie: score) At this point I'm sorry I posted the youtube link - it's ridiculous how you seem so quick to jump at motivations and assign statements/motive when none of this exist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 1 hour ago, George Dixon said: this wasn't finals night - still time to understand and tweak things! Hmm true but the overall concern is that corps are not getting feedback, correct? Do corps not get feedback during critique? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xandandl Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 46 minutes ago, Cappybara said: Hmm true but the overall concern is that corps are not getting feedback, correct? Do corps not get feedback during critique? Critiques cease once Allentown hits, yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 1 hour ago, xandandl said: Critiques cease once Allentown hits, yes? Do they? I have no clue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, xandandl said: Critiques cease once Allentown hits, yes? For the most part yes. Judge critiques become essentially reduntant after Allentown. Not more can be said once all the Corps busses all roll into Indy. If the staffs have not figured out what to do in changes/ improvements by then after listening to judges tapes/ critiques all summer long, its way too late to do anything after Allentown. Corps do make changes however after Allentown that sometimes will only show up at Indy... but those changes were planned for, and well before Allentown, or any input from listening to late season judge tapes/critiques in most all cases. Edited August 28, 2017 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xandandl Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 7 hours ago, Cappybara said: I thought the constructive feedback comes in the beginning to mid season on the judge tapes as well as in critique. Just because you haven't heard this feedback on late season/end of season judging tapes doesn't mean the feedback doesn't occur. Cap and GD, Here's the current critique criteria from DCI subject to change come the Rules Congress in early January. https://judgesacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Critique-11-copy.pdf I am still searching for the protocols memo about when critiques begin and end. That has changed several times in the last decade. A Dan Potter interview with Michael Cesario may be the best I can do in my researching when I get back to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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