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27 minutes ago, xandandl said:

Thanks.

For reference interests, do you have a written or source for the info? I don't doubt you, just putting all the ducks in a row. (Since my house fire awhile back, I am still replacing some of the original sources lost to smoke and water damage, etc.)

2 answers:

1. I should amend this to say critique ends the night before Atlanta for all World Class corps. Open Class corps have critique until they get to Michigan City. 

2. Every year DCI sends out an email about how critique ends on [Date]. It includes lots of rules about not talking to judges, not texting or calling friend-judges, how to give feedback of someone talks to a judge illegally, etc. 

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11 minutes ago, DCPusername said:

2 answers:

1. I should amend this to say critique ends the night before Atlanta for all World Class corps. Open Class corps have critique until they get to Michigan City. 

2. Every year DCI sends out an email about how critique ends on [Date]. It includes lots of rules about not talking to judges, not texting or calling friend-judges, how to give feedback of someone talks to a judge illegally, etc. 

2 is what I am seeking. Anyone still have your copy?

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27 minutes ago, BRASSO said:

. ..... Academy this season probably had the best coordinated Theme Specific attire of all  the World Class Div. Corps this season, imo. The judges could have cared less. They fell out of Finals. Thats because their wonderfully coordinated  " show designed " Corps proper attire itself, was completely useless and wholly irrelevent to their scores and placements this season. Same as it ever was... with ALL these World Class Div. and Open Class Div. Corps scores/ placements.

Your point makes me happy... not that Academy didn't do as well competitively, but because I agree with your argument.  The fantastic design choices of the Academy's uniform did not bolster their score in a way that outweighed what and how they performed.  

This gives me hope that:

1) Corps can still be competitive regardless of uniform 

2) Corps can save money by doing uniforms for multiple years instead of feeling they need to reinvest in a new costume every year to fit their concept

3) Corps will realize this one aspect of the arms-race isn't more important than their visual identity, whatever that may be (c'mmmoooonnnn Cadets! bring it baaaack...) :-)  

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1 hour ago, BRASSO said:

 Academy this season probably had the best coordinated Theme Specific attire of all  the World Class Div. Corps this season, imo. The judges could have cared less. They fell out of Finals. Thats because their wonderfully coordinated  " show designed " Corps proper attire itself, was completely useless and wholly irrelevent to their scores and placements this season. Same as it ever was... with ALL these World Class Div. and Open Class Div. Corps scores/ placements.

Costume is one aspect of visual scoring (and it obviously has no impact on music scores). The fact that a good costume isn't a golden ticket to a finals spot doesn't mean that it's irrelevant to the scores. Academy had great costumes this year, which probably helped their effect and visual scores.

Fact: visual judges have commented on uniforms for forever. Every single guard on the field has used show-specific costumes for decades. Most of the top 12 used show-specific costumes this year, and likely all will do so next year. There's no way that every visual designer in the activity would put this kind of effort and money into costumes if they believed it has no impact on the score.

I think you do have point that costumes aren't a competitive advantage once everyone does them - but it's still a competitive disadvantage if everyone else does it but you do not. So like many changes in the activity, there was an advantage to the first mover - Bloo '16. Now everyone else finds themselves doing similar things to keep up, with the long-term competitive balance unchanged.

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1 hour ago, ShortAndFast said:

 

Fact: visual judges have commented on uniforms for forever. 

 Fact : They have even commented on the tapes on " handsomeness of the Drum Major "," cuteness of the female Soloist", yada, yada, yada and hundreds of other extraneous and irrelevent things  that then never went into the score they then put down on their sheet for the Corps. Anyone that has ever listened to Visual Tapes from judges over the years knows this intuitively as well. There is no evidence whatsoever... none... that attire and/ or headgear in the Corps proper has had any effect on scores/ placements. There is a mountain of evidence however that clearly points to the fact that the annual change in attire/ headgear by all these Corps in World Class/ Open Class Divisions each season now has had virtually no bearing at all on their scores/ placements from year to year. Their scores/ placements are based upon the quality of the Show Design, the teaching staff's quality of instruction, the marcher talent, and the marcher execution levels in their performance. What attire/ headgear they have on is irrelevent. As such, Blue Devils ( 1st ) could have worn the Blue Stars ( 10th ) outfit this season and still won. Conversely, the Blue Stars could have worn the Blue Devils attire and they'd have finished exactly where they did finish.... 10th.

Edited by BRASSO

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22 hours ago, BRASSO said:

 Finally, its worth noting that the DCI winning Corps this season had the 1st quarter of their show a " retro " show.. a traditional show. Did it hurt them in the scores/placements ? No. The Corps with THE single most traditional shako in all of DCI likewise was the Blue Devils this season.  The BD skinny , smallish, traditional, white plumes were as " traditional " in headgear as any Corps in DCI this season. Did it hurt them in placements/scores ? No. Did it help them in scores/. placements ? No, as well, imo. Thats because, as we should be able to readily see by NOW, what you wear for attire/ headgear is a non factor in any of these World Class/ Open Class Corps scores and placements. 

Great! If this is true -- by your measure -- and there is no penalty for attire or head gear, as you see it, then why not wear something that looks more realistic for the sake of the show? I mean, if there is no penalty in score then I believe designers will put corps in all kinds of outfits, costumes, or modified corps unis to give the show more realism. To me, Cadets Mass presentation from this past year was a more realistic and accurate interpretation of the real thing. Had they worn their classic West Point style uni the show would not have seemed as real. The look and feel would not be the same or nearly as faithful to the stage production. 

Whether you like it or not, I believe we will see more costumes, modified corps unis and in some cases hats, and in others no hats. I do believe GE visual and visual analysis judges take these things into account. The Blue Devils, who you mention, have not used their old classic uni in many years. They've done plenty well in all kinds of outfits, and yes they have always worn a shako. I bet they would do well without a shako.  I agree with you that it mostly comes down to great design, great teaching, etc. to make a show flourish. I've been saying that for years.  This notion, however, that since costumes do not make a difference -- as you describe it -- therefore everyone should go back to their original uniforms is missing the point.  I personally have no idea how much some uniforms/costumes help or hurt a show because I am not judging, but I imagine like anything in a show where visual, music, and execution are judged it is a factor.  More to the point, if the designers believe the show will present a more realistic effect for the audience in a costume (hat or no hat) then that is the direction they will take. 

Edited by jwillis35

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22 minutes ago, jwillis35 said:

Great! If this is true -- by your measure -- and there is no penalty for attire or head gear, as you see it, then why not wear something that looks more realistic for the sake of the show? 

 Since this is a Cadets thread, I could ask you a variation of your question. Why change an iconic uniform that you have won you multiple DCI Titles with in, when there is no evidence at all that wearing the Cadet styled uniform has hurt you at all in scores& placements/ recruitment/ retention/ and the 80+ year of successful branding of the Corps with judges, fans, alums ? I believe that there is NO connection between attire/ headgear and scores and placements. However, those that DO believe that attire/ headgear decisions DO have an effect on scores/ placements are then compelled by that logic alone to believe then that the Cadets abandonment of their iconic Cadet styled attire/ headgear was an attire/ headgear decision with disastrous results.. as a line can be drawn from that mid season decision in 2015 ( when they were in 1st place ) for a change in attire that has resulted in a placement plummet of historic dimensions for the Cadets.  Did the Cadets Cadet style uniform help or hurt them when they won their DCI Title in 2011 ?. I believe neither. They did alter the colors for duality purposes. But the attire was Cadet styled. The shako / plume was what they have worn when they've finished 1st before, or 25th before. So it did not matter a wit. Thats because the judges did not put their scores down on what the Cadets wore in 2011... the same way the judges did not put down their scores for the Cadets here in 2017 on what they wore either..... (nor in 1983, or 1963.... or any other season for that matter. )

Edited by BRASSO

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10 minutes ago, BRASSO said:

 Since this is a Cadets thread, I could ask you a variation of your question. Why change an iconic uniform that you have won ypou multiple DCI Titles with in, when there is no evidence at all that wearing the Cadet styled uniform has hurt you at all in scores& placements/ recruitment/ retention/ and the 80+ year of successful branding of the Corps with judges, fans, alums ?

Because they can. Because they are looking for the next thing. Because they feel it gives the show more impact. Because they want to try something new. There are lots of reasons, and not all of them are about winning or scores. The gamble may well be that if this is the direction the activity is going, then Cadets need to get good at it.  It's not really my question to answer, but wearing a uniform and hat or not is a design issue. DCI is different today, design has changed. The Cadets cannot play by 1980 rules or perception.  

Edited by jwillis35

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26 minutes ago, jwillis35 said:

. The Cadets cannot play by 1980 rules or perception.  

 But no Corps can.  Crown changes attire/ headgear every season. Sometimes they place 1st, sometimes 3rd, sometimes 10th. But in none of those cases, did their decision to change attire/ headgear every seaaon since the 90's have any bearing at all in their scores/ placements. Bluecoats won a Title with their decision to go hatless, and finished 5th this season with a decision to put a hat back on their head. Their placements however had not a thing to do with what what they put on their head, or not put on their head in either season. Jersey surf has gone hatless, wore hats, wore no hats. 'Had all manner of progressive colors, or traditional attire/ headgear, and changed up every season. In all cases however, what they wore was irrelevent to their scores/ placements. Pioneer, unlike most Corps, does not change their attire/ headgear much at all. it has had no effect on their scores/ placements though. Keeping the same attire/ headgear for 50 years, ( as Cadets used too ) or changing attire/ headgear each and every season does not matter at all in one's scores/ placements. BD had THE most traditional headgear/ plumes among any of the World Class Division Corps. They won in it. SCV came in 2nd... and hatless. Bluecoats came in 5th with a bowler hat on. suspenders too. NONE of any of this mattered however. We can then go right down the line and look at all maanner of attire/ headgear ( or no headgear ) among ALL these World Class/ Open Class Corps to determine for ourselves that their scores/ placements had virtually nothing at all to do with their wholly disparate attire/ headgear choices they all made for themselves.

Edited by BRASSO

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On 8/27/2017 at 9:17 AM, xandandl said:

The energy of the Cadets' look hasn't been just the actual color and style of the fabrics they wear; it's been their cleanliness of drill, their quest for achievement, their difficulty of maneuver Those aspects have not been there since 2011. Costumes do gloss that a lot for many units (faux skirts, half capes, distraction of multiple colors, fako-s, bizarre striping, odd cuts of materials, etc. particularly skimpy or half naked appearances by guard and other members. But the guts is still the precision and cleanliness of whatever is attempted whether Bloo sliding down ramps, BD playing mirror-mirror with stair cases, etc. or Cadets in a revolving block. 

Cadet LEGS used to POP with their drill with their uni's before the change to those black things ...it made the drill exciting...that was an aspect I always LOVED from the Cadets...that aspect was also lost this year as well and disapointing...

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