MikeRapp Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Fred Windish said: I've personally seen and heard what you describe. I've also stood in on actual pre-contest meetings. Humans have preconceived notions about everything, including the taste of Brussels Sprouts. I feel sure no one judging in 2017 thought Pioneer had any chance whatsoever to defeat the Blue Devils. One the other hand, several must have believed Pioneer will defeat other corps this season. I just don't believe we can totally eliminate all notion of pre-judging when humans are involved. Three things. First, prejudging is actually built into dci. It is, actually, required to deliver the scores the corps directors want. You are not supposed to judge what's on the field on its own terms, that night. Second, judges often judge many shows throughout the season. They are judging the same corps over and over again. As such, and in light of how the scores are determined (relative vs actual) prejudging is actually a part of the process. In other words, it's not a bug, it's a feature. Third, if the only goal of judging in dci is to determine the right winners on finals night, the way they go about it is actually most likely to determine exactly and only that. At the end of every season, the dci corps directors have to sit down and determine if the judging gave them the outcomes they wanted. That's really the only question to answer. We can say we think there is too much guard emphasis, or too much dance emphasis, but the corps directors themselves determine what they want the activity to be. It's like asking the ten biggest NBA stars to determine the rules for the NBA. Edited August 21, 2017 by MikeRapp 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraFart Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 36 minutes ago, Stu said: Shifting from first on Fri to ninth on Sat would be an anomaly; shifting from first to second is, um, what we call competition. Again lets run the experiment of a judge viewing the Friday night performance knowing only the Saturday night scores and thinking they are viewing Saturday night. Would the guard judge agree with the scores, or would they even know that the outcome was different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRapp Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 9 minutes ago, ContraFart said: Again lets run the experiment of a judge viewing the Friday night performance knowing only the Saturday night scores and thinking they are viewing Saturday night. Would the guard judge agree with the scores, or would they even know that the outcome was different? The entire concept of dci judging is kind of silly. The idea that these shows, which mostly remain virtually identical from one performance to the next, somehow magically, in lock step, increase in content potential every single night is goofy. Again, the goal is not to judge a specific night's competition but to arrive at the right medalists at the end of the season. As such, scoring is a wink and a nod anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 1 hour ago, MikeRapp said: At the end of every season, the dci corps directors have to sit down and determine if the judging gave them the outcomes they wanted. That's really the only question to answer. We can say we think there is too much guard emphasis, or too much dance emphasis, but the corps directors themselves determine what they want the activity to be. It's like asking the ten biggest NBA stars to determine the rules for the NBA. A think a better descriptor than what you wrote would be that the directors judge whether what was judged is what they wanted judged, not the outcome. To suggest that they use judging to establish a desired outcome would, in fact, feed the notion that the OP is actually wrong and that there really IS a conspiracy to attain a pre-determined outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 13 minutes ago, MikeRapp said: The entire concept of dci judging is kind of silly. The idea that these shows, which mostly remain virtually identical from one performance to the next, somehow magically, in lock step, increase in content potential every single night is goofy. Again, the goal is not to judge a specific night's competition but to arrive at the right medalists at the end of the season. As such, scoring is a wink and a nod anyway. Been saying this for years here, and it's usually accepted with a wink and a nod that I'm out of my mind. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRapp Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, garfield said: Been saying this for years here, and it's usually accepted with a wink and a nod that I'm out of my mind. We should not rule out the possibility that both are true... :-j 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRapp Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, garfield said: A think a better descriptor than what you wrote would be that the directors judge whether what was judged is what they wanted judged, not the outcome. To suggest that they use judging to establish a desired outcome would, in fact, feed the notion that the OP is actually wrong and that there really IS a conspiracy to attain a pre-determined outcome. That's probably a more accurate way to put it. But, in light of the G7 movement, we can't just dismiss the idea that the top six or so organizations are designing an activity that's built to suppport the exact sort of scoring placement outcomes we now get. And, for the most part, get every single year. Again, I'm not saying this as a criticism but a simple statement of fact based on what we do in fact know about the activity. It is, by design, a self fulfilling prophecy. The only thing that could impact change is ticket and merchandise sales. Which no doubt it does. The degree to which high schools adopt the design concepts that DCI's top organizations are presenting is really important. If DCI is nothing more than a display, a show, then momentum will peter out. It's actually the entire philosophy that made Carolina Crown what it is, the drum corps that most high schools can aspire to. No high school can aspire to be Bluecoats, or even Blue Devils. The bar is just too high from a show design standpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afd Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Does anyone take a break from Drum corps? I see people here ALL THE TIME. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby L. Collins Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, afd said: Does anyone take a break from Drum corps? I see people here ALL THE TIME. Some call it a fever. Others call it a disease. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRapp Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, afd said: Does anyone take a break from Drum corps? I see people here ALL THE TIME. Truthfully, I do check out during the offseason. The first month after the end of the season is usually pretty engaging because we all try to evaluate whether the scoring system is working and what changes if any are happening in the power structure of the activity. After that I, out until show designs begin to be unveiled for the next season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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