Jeff Ream Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 3 hours ago, ContraFart said: Is there a critique after finals night? No. When do the scoring anomalies happen in which I refer to? Finals night? When do scores count the most? Finals night. So is there a mechanism to challenge a score which you do not agree with that might cost you a medal or a caption award? No. most anaomolies happen in July Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 3 hours ago, ContraFart said: If it is that volitile, then how can we call DCI a fair competition? you do realize even in the good old days of tic systems, there was NEVER a clearly defined tic. it was just as subjective if not moreso, as the sheets had far less criteria 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 2 hours ago, MikeRapp said: Let's be honest here. All corps are equal but some are more equal than others. To pretend as if Pioneer is judged with the same attentiveness and thoroughness of Bluecoats or Blue Devils is silly. Also, everyone knows that judging criteria are essentially designed by a handful of corps directors. And judges are hired by those corps directors to evaluate based on these criteria...and then dismissed if they don't meet those directors' expectations. I sure would not want to be a judge under these circumstances! i'll disagree on the attentiveness. Obviously, better performance allows the judge to see and hear more nuances and details, but the doesn't mean judges mail it in for lower placing corps. In fact, i daresay they tend to dial in more, because while yes, a judge ranks and rates, they also play the role of teacher, counselor and critic.At that level, often they fall into teacher mode because not only do they want to help the kids, but they want to help the staffs grow too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Stu said: Of rewarding archaic boot and skirt wearing high stepping color guards over modern spandex dance thi chi guards? yup. and god bless Marie when she still judged Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 20 minutes ago, BDCorno said: Did you even bother to look at the actual scores, or did you pull your numbers out of your rear? Over the six shows leading into finals, BD got the nod four out of six, and an average margin of just under a tenth. Over time, I think that is somewhat reflective of the quality of the two groups, and relative strength. BD had the better guard "on paper", but SCV performed better at 2/3 of the shows that counted. Congrats to them on the caption win. DCI semis - SCV +.2 DCI prelims - SCV +.15 Buffalo TOC - BD +.15 Allentown (two night show, same judge) - BD +.15 Nightbeat TOC - BD +.1 DCI Southeast - BD +.4 Both very good color guards, consensus 1-2 all season, save a couple of shows. As with all judging, it's rank and rate. If one guard is better in terms of performance, and the judge isn't going half tenths, that can flip scores .2 in a single subcaption. If performance affects the content number, or maybe the judge has a different take on the 'subjective" content number, there is another .2. It's not all that hard to fathom. I was at Indy, and frankly, SCV outperformed BD's guard at both shows and deserved the caption win. Finals? Extraordinary performance by BD's guard (only dropless performance of the weekend, unless I missed something), and deserving of the caption win and spread. SCV very good at finals but not their best show of the weekend IMHO. We're talking humans here, and it's not the same person night to night, so expecting lockstep consistency actually seems to prefer a conspiratorial bent to the judging. Nothing to see here, move along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 1 hour ago, MikeRapp said: The entire concept of dci judging is kind of silly. The idea that these shows, which mostly remain virtually identical from one performance to the next, somehow magically, in lock step, increase in content potential every single night is goofy. Again, the goal is not to judge a specific night's competition but to arrive at the right medalists at the end of the season. As such, scoring is a wink and a nod anyway. hardly identical. And as more and more on the performance end becomes clean, more and more nuances and layers can be detected. Just 2 years ago, by fluke of scheduling, I saw a band 3 times over the course of the season. Each time, as the kids got more proficient and the staff did their job shaping and molding, i was able, on effect no less, to get far more of what the show was designed to tell me. Dynamic shaping mastered, lead voices clarified, the visual coordination fully fleshed out...it was masterful to see what the kids and their staff accomplished, and at championships, when they stuck the landing so to speak, I openly cheered into my IPad. It was everything they told me to look for, and they all delivered. Even this year watching BD, more and more was added, especially at the ending 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 1 hour ago, garfield said: A think a better descriptor than what you wrote would be that the directors judge whether what was judged is what they wanted judged, not the outcome. To suggest that they use judging to establish a desired outcome would, in fact, feed the notion that the OP is actually wrong and that there really IS a conspiracy to attain a pre-determined outcome. yeah cause you know every director wants BD to win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 1 hour ago, MikeRapp said: That's probably a more accurate way to put it. But, in light of the G7 movement, we can't just dismiss the idea that the top six or so organizations are designing an activity that's built to suppport the exact sort of scoring placement outcomes we now get. And, for the most part, get every single year. Again, I'm not saying this as a criticism but a simple statement of fact based on what we do in fact know about the activity. It is, by design, a self fulfilling prophecy. The only thing that could impact change is ticket and merchandise sales. Which no doubt it does. The degree to which high schools adopt the design concepts that DCI's top organizations are presenting is really important. If DCI is nothing more than a display, a show, then momentum will peter out. It's actually the entire philosophy that made Carolina Crown what it is, the drum corps that most high schools can aspire to. No high school can aspire to be Bluecoats, or even Blue Devils. The bar is just too high from a show design standpoint. you do realize the G7 corps can't even agree to disagree right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 38 minutes ago, BDCorno said: Did you even bother to look at the actual scores, or did you pull your numbers out of your rear? Over the six shows leading into finals, BD got the nod four out of six, and an average margin of just under a tenth. Over time, I think that is somewhat reflective of the quality of the two groups, and relative strength. BD had the better guard "on paper", but SCV performed better at 2/3 of the shows that counted. Congrats to them on the caption win. DCI semis - SCV +.2 DCI prelims - SCV +.15 Buffalo TOC - BD +.15 Allentown (two night show, same judge) - BD +.15 Nightbeat TOC - BD +.1 DCI Southeast - BD +.4 Both very good color guards, consensus 1-2 all season, save a couple of shows. As with all judging, it's rank and rate. If one guard is better in terms of performance, and the judge isn't going half tenths, that can flip scores .2 in a single subcaption. If performance affects the content number, or maybe the judge has a different take on the 'subjective" content number, there is another .2. It's not all that hard to fathom. I was at Indy, and frankly, SCV outperformed BD's guard at both shows and deserved the caption win. Finals? Extraordinary performance by BD's guard (only dropless performance of the weekend, unless I missed something), and deserving of the caption win and spread. SCV very good at finals but not their best show of the weekend IMHO. We're talking humans here, and it's not the same person night to night, so expecting lockstep consistency actually seems to prefer a conspiratorial bent to the judging. Nothing to see here, move along. also, one must consider that 1-3 tenths in a sub box means on any given day. 4-6 tenths, then there's some differences. given that the numbers quoted are the bottom line number for the caption it means it was that close. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraFart Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 40 minutes ago, BDCorno said: Did you even bother to look at the actual scores, or did you pull your numbers out of your rear? Over the six shows leading into finals, BD got the nod four out of six, and an average margin of just under a tenth. Over time, I think that is somewhat reflective of the quality of the two groups, and relative strength. BD had the better guard "on paper", but SCV performed better at 2/3 of the shows that counted. Congrats to them on the caption win. DCI semis - SCV +.2 DCI prelims - SCV +.15 Buffalo TOC - BD +.15 Allentown (two night show, same judge) - BD +.15 Nightbeat TOC - BD +.1 DCI Southeast - BD +.4 Both very good color guards, consensus 1-2 all season, save a couple of shows. As with all judging, it's rank and rate. If one guard is better in terms of performance, and the judge isn't going half tenths, that can flip scores .2 in a single subcaption. If performance affects the content number, or maybe the judge has a different take on the 'subjective" content number, there is another .2. It's not all that hard to fathom. I was at Indy, and frankly, SCV outperformed BD's guard at both shows and deserved the caption win. Finals? Extraordinary performance by BD's guard (only dropless performance of the weekend, unless I missed something), and deserving of the caption win and spread. SCV very good at finals but not their best show of the weekend IMHO. We're talking humans here, and it's not the same person night to night, so expecting lockstep consistency actually seems to prefer a conspiratorial bent to the judging. Nothing to see here, move along. I already said I stood corrected at that previous statement. However the same thing happened last year with Crowns guard and the head to head was even or had crown ahead by one coming into championship week. IMO Crowns guard had the run of lifetime on Saturday night, yet still lost only on Saturday night. It still does not address the premise. If judging in and of itself if so fluid that 2 panels will not score the same exact show the same on the exact same night (which was mentioned in this thread) then what weight to the scores actually have? Why is consistency among panels not even a goal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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