2018 Rules proposals

[Jeff Ream]

6 hours ago, garfield said:

...or, worse, an apathetic paying customer who is only there in hopes of surviving long enough to see the activity rebalance the artistic and execution demands.  There's a whole center section of the stands that feels that way yet still buys tickets.  But for how long...?

that's been a question unable to be answered since the beginning of time. Even those of us here in 09 and 10 wondered if the law of diminishing returns was finally catching up with DCI. Then it's been mostly growth on several fronts since.

[Jeff Ream]

1 hour ago, xandandl said:

This too is an excellent insight to which more attention should be given by the Indy office and the Directors.

yes, and no. home office trying to dictate design choices could have unintended consequences.

[Jeff Ream]

1 hour ago, garfield said:

I'm sure some have a chip on their shoulder, but I'm referring more to those who more just shrug their shoulders.  And the long time fans I'm referencing aren't curmudgeons at all!  In fact, they smile and clap politely for the effort the kids put out, just as soon as they lower their hands from covering their ears against the thunderous goo from the sidelines.  

And you're, of course, right that he/she will be replaced.  But the point is that, with a little sensitivity to the fact that this new world of electronic music with analog horn and drum backup is not just more of the same that's been curmudgeon-creating for decades.  The additions of the past, as has been so much debated, didn't so perceptively change the nature of the sound coming from the field (no valves, two valves, three valves or marching tympani vs. grounded, or 128 members vs. 150).

The activity doesn't have to drive away apathetic customers, it needs to wow them again.  Surely, the DCI brain trust can figure out how to do that, right?  Or can they?

 

the great debate. for...well...since 1972 DCI, and even moreso DCA has grappled with how to bring in the new and keep the old ( in terms of length of fandom, not age) happy. it's two distinctly wagging tails on a dog, that they've never mastered well. if the G7 did one thing, it got the organization focused on A path for getting fans...and they've focused on the youth. long time fans have grumbled and threatened to leave back to the letter to the editor page days of Drum Corps news. I saved many of Dad's old issues...and the complaints....rock music! Pop music! no clor pres or respect for the flag! no more ties to veterans groups! no more ties to churches! too much Chuck Mangione ( ok in 1979 they were right on that). Dance. Bridgemen. classical. running. grounded instruments. adding valves. losing corps. ticket prices. George Hopkins.

 

the list of complaints about what they see and hear by drum corps fans has been happening since the beginning of time. The internet has amplified it for lack of a better word. So, if I am DCI, do I try to do what appeals to kids and they see whats happening in the band world, or do i try to cater to that 49 year old guy who logs into DCP to ##### about something?

 

Well, it appears DCI has gone after the kids, hoping many will stick around til the next wave. I'm unique I know that i have been around the game my entire life. I've hit at least 3 get off my lawn moments with drum corps and the changes. The last time was 4 years...i bailed out of my Friends group, stopped going unless i had kid out there. Then I went to East in 08....and what I saw pulled me back in slowly. 10 almost drove me back away, granted half of that was finals venue. Now I'm back on, even if i have issues...but i've always had issues. And DCi knows that i'm not their target, but they'll gladly keep me as long as they can. I'm not quite my dad and his aversion to a phone that doesn't flip open to answer it, but I am a guy with an adorable 5 1/2 year old that may be out there some day. ( i always tease Bob Jacobs that we will hear " presenting their 2026 program "because Sadie's dad said so" some day LOL). But i know i'm not their priority, and i'm sure to have another get off my lawn moment along the way

[garfield]

1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said:

the great debate. for...well...since 1972 DCI, and even moreso DCA has grappled with how to bring in the new and keep the old ( in terms of length of fandom, not age) happy. it's two distinctly wagging tails on a dog, that they've never mastered well. if the G7 did one thing, it got the organization focused on A path for getting fans...and they've focused on the youth. long time fans have grumbled and threatened to leave back to the letter to the editor page days of Drum Corps news. I saved many of Dad's old issues...and the complaints....rock music! Pop music! no clor pres or respect for the flag! no more ties to veterans groups! no more ties to churches! too much Chuck Mangione ( ok in 1979 they were right on that). Dance. Bridgemen. classical. running. grounded instruments. adding valves. losing corps. ticket prices. George Hopkins.

 

the list of complaints about what they see and hear by drum corps fans has been happening since the beginning of time. The internet has amplified it for lack of a better word. So, if I am DCI, do I try to do what appeals to kids and they see whats happening in the band world, or do i try to cater to that 49 year old guy who logs into DCP to ##### about something?

 

Well, it appears DCI has gone after the kids, hoping many will stick around til the next wave. I'm unique I know that i have been around the game my entire life. I've hit at least 3 get off my lawn moments with drum corps and the changes. The last time was 4 years...i bailed out of my Friends group, stopped going unless i had kid out there. Then I went to East in 08....and what I saw pulled me back in slowly. 10 almost drove me back away, granted half of that was finals venue. Now I'm back on, even if i have issues...but i've always had issues. And DCi knows that i'm not their target, but they'll gladly keep me as long as they can. I'm not quite my dad and his aversion to a phone that doesn't flip open to answer it, but I am a guy with an adorable 5 1/2 year old that may be out there some day. ( i always tease Bob Jacobs that we will hear " presenting their 2026 program "because Sadie's dad said so" some day LOL). But i know i'm not their priority, and i'm sure to have another get off my lawn moment along the way

I'm honored to have elicited one of the longer Ream posts.

"rock music! Pop music! no clor pres or respect for the flag! no more ties to veterans groups! no more ties to churches! too much Chuck Mangione ( ok in 1979 they were right on that). Dance. Bridgemen. classical. running. grounded instruments. adding valves. losing corps. ticket prices. George Hopkins."

What a great list!  I was there for all of those and your Dad is, of course, right about the uproar - I remember reading it all over DCW.

But, the only item on that list that significantly changed the nature of the sound coming from the field is George Hopkins.  Or, more specifically, his push (and now pull) into A&E.

And I'm not specifically against A&E, at all.  In fact, I've loved many shows that've utilized it "pretty well" to my obviously subjective opinion.

The point is that the attitude in DCI continues to be focused on the kids, as it should.  But in typical DCI small-ball-fixed-pie thinking, the designers continually choose to sacrifice design styles appreciated by more and more recent audiences in favor of "what the kids want" (which is crappy because we all know that the same designers/teachers propagating A&E in DCI are the same ones doing so in HS, indoor, and winter).  It's hard, apparently, for designers to think in terms of not sacrificing existing fan's tastes while, at the same time, appealing to the designer's expectations "For The Kids" (*cough, cough*bullsh*t*).

I know it's cliche, but it's old and worn because it's still true:  It costs MUCH less to keep a fan than it does to replace one.  It seems to be one of those business principles that is lost on the creative talent driving the activity, director or otherwise.

IMO

 

 

[Fran Haring]

4 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

long time fans have grumbled and threatened to leave back to the letter to the editor page days of Drum Corps news.

 

Man... those Drum Corps News days. It was like the Wild West on the Letters to the Editor page, and in a number of the articles... quite opinionated, shall we say.  My old DCA team was the subject/target of some of that stuff... what a complete ####-show. When I was co-PR director with that corps, we even sent a letter of complaint to the DCN publisher about an article he wrote regarding us that was so slanted you'd think the newspaper would slide out of your hands when reading it.  LOL.

The stuff that goes on here on DCP, on FB, on Reddit, heck, even some of the RAMD stuff.... pretty tame, compared to the Drum Corps News era.

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Fran Haring

[cixelsyd]

15 hours ago, garfield said:

I'm sure some have a chip on their shoulder, but I'm referring more to those who more just shrug their shoulders.  And the long time fans I'm referencing aren't curmudgeons at all!  In fact, they smile and clap politely for the effort the kids put out, just as soon as they lower their hands from covering their ears against the thunderous goo from the sidelines.  

And you're, of course, right that he/she will be replaced.  But the point is that, with a little sensitivity to the fact that this new world of electronic music with analog horn and drum backup is not just more of the same that's been curmudgeon-creating for decades.  The additions of the past, as has been so much debated, didn't so perceptively change the nature of the sound coming from the field (no valves, two valves, three valves or marching tympani vs. grounded, or 128 members vs. 150).

The activity doesn't have to drive away apathetic customers, it needs to wow them again.  Surely, the DCI brain trust can figure out how to do that, right?  Or can they?

 

Many of the same designers still prominent today were wowing us back when (whenever your personal "wow" eras were).  So I think they can... but they choose not to.

[Jeff Ream]

15 hours ago, garfield said:

I'm honored to have elicited one of the longer Ream posts.

"rock music! Pop music! no clor pres or respect for the flag! no more ties to veterans groups! no more ties to churches! too much Chuck Mangione ( ok in 1979 they were right on that). Dance. Bridgemen. classical. running. grounded instruments. adding valves. losing corps. ticket prices. George Hopkins."

What a great list!  I was there for all of those and your Dad is, of course, right about the uproar - I remember reading it all over DCW.

But, the only item on that list that significantly changed the nature of the sound coming from the field is George Hopkins.  Or, more specifically, his push (and now pull) into A&E.

And I'm not specifically against A&E, at all.  In fact, I've loved many shows that've utilized it "pretty well" to my obviously subjective opinion.

The point is that the attitude in DCI continues to be focused on the kids, as it should.  But in typical DCI small-ball-fixed-pie thinking, the designers continually choose to sacrifice design styles appreciated by more and more recent audiences in favor of "what the kids want" (which is crappy because we all know that the same designers/teachers propagating A&E in DCI are the same ones doing so in HS, indoor, and winter).  It's hard, apparently, for designers to think in terms of not sacrificing existing fan's tastes while, at the same time, appealing to the designer's expectations "For The Kids" (*cough, cough*bullsh*t*).

I know it's cliche, but it's old and worn because it's still true:  It costs MUCH less to keep a fan than it does to replace one.  It seems to be one of those business principles that is lost on the creative talent driving the activity, director or otherwise.

IMO

 

 

well...yes and no on the sound. Grounded percussion! Bb brass! HUGE changes that raised a lot of grousing. " you can't carry it you can't play it!" "battery rests too much now!" still hear that. adding the 2nd and 3rd valves..."one step closer to band!" those changed the sound. "Bb isn't as loud!"

now is all A&E good? No! I've loudly said that...it's probably 25% of my posts! i agree it's cheaper to retain than gain new...that's probably 5% of my posts. But in an activity that values designers freedoms for their "art", it's always been this way...that tug of war for fans liking design vs. what designers want to do. history is full of artists more concerned with their vision vs. what pays the bills. Ever read the story of Mario Puzo? He didn't want to write the Godfather. thought it was below him. Publisher sat him down and told him his books didn't sell. Take a shot at that, or we may have to part ways!

boom. changed his life forever. Now designers obviously won't profit like that, but they view their art the same way when it comes to the marching arts. Why have most rules been changed? Easy, to help allow more creative design. Always for the good? no, not close in some cases. But, as i've said thousands of time, unless enough fans walk away that it affects the $$ coming in, DCI is not going to give directives to the designers on what they should or shouldn't do. Cesario tried some things with his programs and platforms, and some did happen, but not all. And of course, technology continuing to evolve opens doors to try. it won't all work. But drum corps has never stood still just because of fan complaints.  DCA faces the issues moreso than DCI because DCA has continuously sucked at outreach to younger demographics, despite design trends matching DCI, and too many marketing decisions were geared towards older fans that aren't attending due to age and health.

 

the goal, and I think Cesarios' project helped, was to get designers to think more business like...what do fans want. changing the sheets. But remember the corps write the sheets. So drum corps will always have this ebb and flow, and will never achieve balance in the Force as it were. there will always be light vs dark when it comes to fans and designers, periods of great, periods of discontent. And honestly, given the nature of the activity, I don't think it's ever possible to avoid that

[glory]

16 hours ago, garfield said:

...But, the only item on that list that significantly changed the nature of the sound coming from the field is George Hopkins.  Or, more specifically, his push (and now pull) into A&E...

 

Not fair, Garfield (Jeff too?). 

More than half the DCI directors voted for electronics. Hopkins isn't that influential as evidenced by the many, many proposals he submits that aren't enacted. All the many directors who voted for electronics voted for it because they wanted it, not because Hopkins is so persuasive. Ascribing A&E to one person is a convenient canard, not the truth. We know better.

HH

[glory]

12 hours ago, Fran Haring said:

Man... those Drum Corps News days. It was like the Wild West on the Letters to the Editor page, and in a number of the articles... quite opinionated, shall we say...

 

I used to work with the former editor-in-chief of the Boston Herald, which was a pretty big paper back in the day. He would tell the story of one of the paper's columnists who used to say when things were getting dull that he was going to write about drum corps because those people get upset by every little thing.

We know the people he's talking about. They might even be us.

HH

[Jeff Ream]

3 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

Many of the same designers still prominent today were wowing us back when (whenever your personal "wow" eras were).  So I think they can... but they choose not to.

wow can mean different things to different people in different eras. The problem with fans is once they like what they like, there's an unwillingness to accept change.