MikeD Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 (edited) On 1/20/2018 at 12:46 PM, Guitar1974 said: To me it boils down to the philosophical debate of what the activity and fans value. Is it the purity of an acoustic human-powered event, or an "anything goes" approach with no limits in the spirit of a Broadway show or modern pop concert? Drum corps is difficult because valid argument can be made from either perspective. I feel that the authenticity and coresponding entertainment value is diminished when machines and audio production folks take over because then anyone can be loud, or in tune, or whatever. A tiny corps with 10 horns could theoretically mic up and part everyone's hair- no big deal to sound awesome with machines and sound engineers. The band I have been teaching since 1994 lost half its members in 2002 when our town split into two HS. We marched 32 people total, DM, winds, percussion and guard. We had 19 total winds. We ended up putting wireless mics on most of them....everyone except the piccolos, tenor sax, tuba and 1st trumpet. I think we micced like 14 or 15 of the winds. It worked out very well for us...and I would do it again in a similar situation. It isn't cheating or "impure"...what matters is the totality of the sound that is produced. Acoustic or supported with mics makes no difference to me, as long as it is balanced and sounds good. Two other years I used a cellist with an electronic cello...no way an acoustic would have been heard. We used a micced English Horn as a feature another year...and a clarinet soloist another. I've used micced flute soloists...did a flute/trumpet duet in "Ghost Train" this past year as a matter of fact. Edited January 25, 2018 by MikeD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 hour ago, MikeD said: Judging ensemble balance is the sound of the ensemble that makes it to the judge in the box. Period. If one section overpowers the rest, the ensemble balance should suffer in the judge's evaluation. That is how I have always judged, regardless of whether or not the band used electronics. I have used electronics and amps with the band I teach for 15 years. We try and get the bland and balance right, but sometimes we just mess up....we as staff cringe when it is not good....and we expect the judge to comment and score us appropriately. It usually happens that way. When we get it right...the same...we expect good comments and scores in that area. Now, a sheet is full of criteria to be judged. How much one area of weakness will impact a score is open to interpretation by the judge. I see comments here about bad electronic balance and its impact not being seen in scores....maybe it is...but just maybe the amount one area reflects in the score is not as overwhelming as those who complain want it to be. it's a two prong problem: the judging community doesnt send a strong enough message the staffs are used to getting a pass ad expect it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitar1974 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 hour ago, MikeD said: The band I have been teaching since 1994 lost half its members in 2002 when our town split into two HS. We marched 32 people total, DM, winds, percussion and guard. We had 19 total winds. We ended up putting wireless mics on most of them....everyone except the piccolos, tenor sax, tuba and 1st trumpet. I think we micced like 14 or 15 of the winds. It worked out very well for us...and I would do it again in a similar situation. It isn't cheating or "impure"...what matters is the totality of the sound that is produced. Acoustic or supported with mics makes no difference to me, as long as it is balanced and sounds good. Two other years I used a cellist with an electronic cello...no way an acoustic would have been heard. We used a micced English Horn as a feature another year...and a clarinet soloist another. I've used micced flute soloists...did a flute/trumpet duet in "Ghost Train" this past year as a matter of fact. Well stated, although I still feel amplification and audio processing takes away from the purity of the product being human produced vs machine. Similar to pro sports limiting the capacity of technology to overshadow human ability (wood bats in MLB, for example) I would think "Marching Music's Major League" wouldn't need to rely on amps and mics like a small high school band understandably would. I understand where you are coming from- heck, I am a professional guitar player and rely amps to earn a living haha. I don't dislike amplification and technology, actually quite the opposite. However, I feel in a competitive activity like drum corps allowing free use of it takes away from leveling the field. We are quickly approaching a time when large sections in the horn line could run wireless mics and be professionally mixed and buffed with effects to create a pseudo-live scenario. Add in line array speakers, more imbedded "ghost" tracking a'la modern pop concerts, real time pitch correction, etc. If done well it could sound awesome, but at what point does the technology overshadow the human element? I mean, Taylor Swift sounds incredible in concert but I think most people realize you are hearing about 50% live 50% engineering. Lots of David Copperfield-level audio magic trickery going on and that technology is getting more accessible and going to continue to make its way into drum corps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 11 hours ago, cowtown said: And would add, many people are not aware of how much sound is being faked by electronics already, credit to the sound folks, shame to the audience I can’t listen to Bluecoats ballad from 2014 (Hymn of the Axiom) due to the choir patch of goo covering the brass, it cheapens and distracts from the moment. As a synth part, it’s uninspired. But there was a review from a Bluecoats alumnus from a live show that year whose wife, who worked with choirs, pointed out that is sounded like a choir. He proudly proclaimed on the board that it was because the horn line was so in tune they achieved a purity of tone similar to a choir. He was oblivious to what his wife picked up on, fake sound support, faked brass tone, a musical cheat. (1) Some fans, even some alumni, aren't very observant. That particular patch is not my favorite sound, but still better than 90% of the synth use I've heard in drum corps, and I never felt that Bluecoats were trying to sneak one by there. It's a distinct sound they've chosen to layer into the mix (for better or worse). (2) The composer seems to have liked how Bluecoats arranged and performed her song. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 19 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: wow can mean different things to different people in different eras. The problem with fans is once they like what they like, there's an unwillingness to accept change. Yet, so many of the people right here in this thread have been fans of drum corps for decades, accepting dozens of such changes. What you stated is demonstrably false. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Haring Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 10 hours ago, MikeD said: The band I have been teaching since 1994 lost half its members in 2002 when our town split into two HS. We marched 32 people total, DM, winds, percussion and guard. We had 19 total winds. We ended up putting wireless mics on most of them....everyone except the piccolos, tenor sax, tuba and 1st trumpet. I think we micced like 14 or 15 of the winds. It worked out very well for us...and I would do it again in a similar situation. It isn't cheating or "impure"...what matters is the totality of the sound that is produced. Acoustic or supported with mics makes no difference to me, as long as it is balanced and sounds good. Two other years I used a cellist with an electronic cello...no way an acoustic would have been heard. We used a micced English Horn as a feature another year...and a clarinet soloist another. I've used micced flute soloists...did a flute/trumpet duet in "Ghost Train" this past year as a matter of fact. Having seen your band on several occasions... IMO, you guys do the electronics thing the right way. Never heard any of it "overpower" the band. The cello feature, in particular, was spot on. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mingusmonk Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 9 hours ago, Guitar1974 said: Well stated, although I still feel amplification and audio processing takes away from the purity of the product being human produced vs machine. Similar to pro sports limiting the capacity of technology to overshadow human ability (wood bats in MLB, for example) I would think "Marching Music's Major League" wouldn't need to rely on amps and mics like a small high school band understandably would. I understand where you are coming from- heck, I am a professional guitar player and rely amps to earn a living haha. I don't dislike amplification and technology, actually quite the opposite. However, I feel in a competitive activity like drum corps allowing free use of it takes away from leveling the field. We are quickly approaching a time when large sections in the horn line could run wireless mics and be professionally mixed and buffed with effects to create a pseudo-live scenario. Add in line array speakers, more imbedded "ghost" tracking a'la modern pop concerts, real time pitch correction, etc. If done well it could sound awesome, but at what point does the technology overshadow the human element? I mean, Taylor Swift sounds incredible in concert but I think most people realize you are hearing about 50% live 50% engineering. Lots of David Copperfield-level audio magic trickery going on and that technology is getting more accessible and going to continue to make its way into drum corps. MLB may have been slow to metal bats initially because of tradition. But today, MLB sticks to wood bats so people don't die. Not because of the purity of the athletic ability. Sports where safety is not a factor keep up'ing the tech. Like Tennis, Golf, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 10 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: it's a two prong problem: the judging community doesnt send a strong enough message the staffs are used to getting a pass ad expect it IMO judges should never "send a strong message" to the staffs. Their one and only job is to evaluate what they hear, and give numbers accordingly to properly rank and rate the groups being evaluated. How much an out-of-balance situation will impact a score is up to the defined judging criteria and what the judge thinks it deserves, number-wise. Totally obscuring the rest of the ensemble at one and, and slightly out-of-balance on the other end is a wide continuum. Factor in all of the other components being evaluated on a caption, and the net impact of one element may not be as much as some here want it to be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitar1974 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, mingusmonk said: MLB may have been slow to metal bats initially because of tradition. But today, MLB sticks to wood bats so people don't die. Not because of the purity of the athletic ability. Sports where safety is not a factor keep up'ing the tech. Like Tennis, Golf, etc. Golf limits clubs MOI or "spring" as well as length, etc. All equipment is highly regulated and anything giving a distinct tech advantage eliminated (square grooves that make it easy to impart spin, etc) My argument is that if sports adopted DCI's current philosophy on technology then anything goes- golfers would be allowed to launch golf balls with laser guided cannons. Actually, that might be kinda entertaining. I'd also argue that if MLB baseball allowed metal bats then hitting home runs wouldn't seem so special anymore- they'd be popping balls over the fence all the time. Kinda like musicians relying on tech to play loud and enhance tone. Once everyone can, thanks to technology, then it isn't so special anymore. Edited January 25, 2018 by Guitar1974 Add Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, MikeD said: IMO judges should never "send a strong message" to the staffs. Their one and only job is to evaluate what they hear, and give numbers accordingly to properly rank and rate the groups being evaluated. How much an out-of-balance situation will impact a score is up to the defined judging criteria and what the judge thinks it deserves, number-wise. Totally obscuring the rest of the ensemble at one and, and slightly out-of-balance on the other end is a wide continuum. Factor in all of the other components being evaluated on a caption, and the net impact of one element may not be as much as some here want it to be. wrong.the criteria is built for a such a message. if your balance is out of whack the whole show, 2 tenths is not a message. it's "yeah i know, so sorry'. 5 tenths sends a message..."get your crap together and don't cry to me you're not getting credit because i can't hear the winds over the amps!" those messages are not being sent in DCI, and in some band circuits. i'm not talking an issue in a spot or two, i'm talking show wide, and those issues DO happen in DCI. I still remember that year at East when Crown had the amps up so #### high people on the 20 complained the couldn't hear the corps. Yet they popped high 9's. I was rows away from the judges and i had issues hearing the battery and brass the entire show. Edited January 26, 2018 by Jeff Ream Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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