In The News – Amid Sexual-Misconduct Scandal, A New Code Of Conduct For Drum Corps

[JimF-LowBari]

1 hour ago, yogitom said:

 

I agree. If it's PROVEN you broke them, not just accusations.That's the point I'm trying to make. It just seems that in this #Me Too culture, accusations are all that is needed to ruin someone and that's not right.

All metoo did was bring out in the open more as this has been going on for years. It’s not like it is a new phenomena within the last year or so. Lot of companies and groups have policies that will remove you from working with the organization until charges are proved or not. Only change I see because of metoo is more victims feel that they will be believed now so they feel safe enough to say what happened.

Edited May 19, 2018 by JimF-LowBari

[Minimaster]

1 hour ago, N.E. Brigand said:

Good for Blue Devils and Academy for working to move drum corps into the 21st century then. But how many corps directors are women? If that number is less than 40%, as I believe it is, that suggests there has been some historical bias in the activity, albeit one that is non-explicit and for the most part not consciously intended, that assumes women just can't hack it, which manifests in discouraging them from ever getting on a leadership track.

 

Wouldn’t someone who doesn’t go after what they want because they felt discouraged be a bad leader anyway?

What evidence of this discouragement do you have?

Equal opportunity does not mean equal outcome.

I know of a few female band directors that could be corps directors that are too busy winning State and National Championships.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Minimaster

[N.E. Brigand]

22 minutes ago, Minimaster said:

Wouldn’t someone who doesn’t go after what they want because they felt discouraged be a bad leader anyway?

What evidence of this discouragement do you have?

Equal opportunity does not mean equal outcome.

I know of a few female band directors that could be corps directors that are too busy winning State and National Championships.

All I can tell you is that if anyone reads your post, 50 years from now, they will only interpret it as someone claiming that most women are less competent than most men to be leaders.

A lack of (approximately) equal outcome does in fact mean that opportunity was never equal. You won't believe that. But in the future, my statement will be seen as common sense.

[GUARDLING]

 

41 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said:

All I can tell you is that if anyone reads your post, 50 years from now, they will only interpret it as someone claiming that most women are less competent than most men to be leaders.

A lack of (approximately) equal outcome does in fact mean that opportunity was never equal. You won't believe that. But in the future, my statement will be seen as common sense.

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I hear this argument often. The fact of the matter is there are fewer females over the years because fewer females want these positions. I usually say they are a lot smarter. Even in the guard world, there are far less female instructors ( especially heading a program ) This does not mean there is less talent among the female gender it is just that many choose different paths, don't want to dedicate the time, etc etc..

Was there and maybe still a " boys club mentality" sure to some degree. That mostly is just among some which in many cases are just threatened by ANY talent more than their own, male or female.

How do I know what I said here is true?

I have spent decades hiring, firing, seeking new talent out, offering opportunities to all genders. This at least has been my experience

.Now keep in mind we aren't talking an industry with millions of jobs and opportunity. With the merger of Drum Corps, band, sound sport winter percussion and guard and the crossover of almost everyone involved YES there has been more to offer today.

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by GUARDLING

[N.E. Brigand]

35 minutes ago, GUARDLING said:

I hear this argument often. The fact of the matter is there are fewer females over the years because fewer females want these positions.

Nah.

Not saying you're a bad guy. Not denying your perception of your experiences. And it's not just drum corps. But the truth is that girls are, from earliest childhood, given many, many, many, many, many more signals than boys that they're not cut out to lead. It's changing. And if you're still around when outcomes are approximately equal, you'll think back to your experiences, and you'll see the patterns that you're missing now.

[GUARDLING]

21 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said:

Nah.

Not saying you're a bad guy. Not denying your perception of your experiences. And it's not just drum corps. But the truth is that girls are, from earliest childhood, given many, many, many, many, many more signals than boys that they're not cut out to lead. It's changing. And if you're still around when outcomes are approximately equal, you'll think back to your experiences, and you'll see the patterns that you're missing now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's not perception, it is fact. I can't debate what factually has been my experience which spans DCI, DCA Band, winter programs including guard and percussion. I have hired MANY females. This isn't the 60s or 70s where the " boys club" dominated. This activity isn't exactly the easiest to be a part of for many reasons

What you have said is or was factually true at one time BUT not for a very long time. With winter guard programs, which does have many females in it, I won't even get into the psychology of females being taught by females. That's another mind-boggling situation or at least was for many decades. Is it rather one-sided? Maybe BUT the reasoning at least to me is pretty clear.

I'm not debating what females have had to deal with over the years and in many cases in many lines of work still have to but I do know in our case of this activity it is on average there are far fewer females seeking these positions, even when offered.

I actually look for talented females to mentor, offer opportunity etc etc. often I find with females I have worked with don't come with a lot of drama. Of course male or female there is always the exception to the rule..lol

Edited May 20, 2018 by GUARDLING

[Minimaster]

12 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said:

Nah.

Not saying you're a bad guy. Not denying your perception of your experiences. And it's not just drum corps. But the truth is that girls are, from earliest childhood, given many, many, many, many, many more signals than boys that they're not cut out to lead. It's changing. And if you're still around when outcomes are approximately equal, you'll think back to your experiences, and you'll see the patterns that you're missing now.

If that’s true than why are 60% of college students women. 

Those are the leaders.

Please state facts.

[N.E. Brigand]

42 minutes ago, Minimaster said:

If that’s true than why are 60% of college students women. 

Those are the leaders.

Please state facts.

I did. Far less than half of drum corps directors are women. It's not because women are less competent.

Yes, the times they are a-changin'. But just because half of the drum corps directors 25 years from now, or whenever, will be women, doesn't mean that half of drum corps' directors now are women, or that there hasn't been a long-term bias against them, not just in drum corps but in society as a whole.

[N.E. Brigand]

46 minutes ago, GUARDLING said:

It's not perception, it is fact. I can't debate what factually has been my experience which spans DCI, DCA Band, winter programs including guard and percussion. I have hired MANY females. This isn't the 60s or 70s where the " boys club" dominated. This activity isn't exactly the easiest to be a part of for many reasons

What you have said is or was factually true at one time BUT not for a very long time. With winter guard programs, which does have many females in it, I won't even get into the psychology of females being taught by females. That's another mind-boggling situation or at least was for many decades. Is it rather one-sided? Maybe BUT the reasoning at least to me is pretty clear.

I'm not debating what females have had to deal with over the years and in many cases in many lines of work still have to but I do know in our case of this activity it is on average there are far fewer females seeking these positions, even when offered.

I actually look for talented females to mentor, offer opportunity etc etc. often I find with females I have worked with don't come with a lot of drama. Of course male or female there is always the exception to the rule..lol

Again, what percentage of current drum corps directors are women?

I'm not saying it has to be 50%. I am saying that anything less than 40% is due to long-term structural bias.

The outreach you've done is great! You're part of an ongoing change. Fantastic! But you wouldn't need to make such extra efforts if the system had been fair in the first place.

(You may have the last word, if you wish.)

[GUARDLING]

20 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said:

I did. Far less than half of drum corps directors are women. It's not because women are less competent.

Yes, the times they are a-changin'. But just because half of the drum corps directors 25 years from now, or whenever, will be women, doesn't mean that half of drum corps' directors now are women, or that there hasn't been a long-term bias against them, not just in drum corps but in society as a whole.

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Of course, women are not less competent. That has nothing to do with whether women want these positions or not. That makes a very big difference. I think if you look at it that way you can see we both can be right.

Edited May 20, 2018 by GUARDLING