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Sanguinarian22

Heated 10-15 Competition

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7 hours ago, 2muchcoffeeman said:

Like I said, I know I'm a (nearly) lone voice on this. I think "finals culture" is, overall, harmful to the activity. 

I could agree with that part.  But I would rather change the culture, not the finals.

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9 hours ago, Liahona said:

I understand how you feel...but it is not about giving everyone a participation trophy...It is simple...you want to SEE all 25 corps...then ATTEND the prelims earlier in the week rather then just flying in for Saturday night...

To clarify: my lonely campaign is not waged for the benefit of fan convenience. It is waged for the overall good of the activity by changing, in a subtle but I think important way, the culture of membership.

And, yes, of course it's not about a participation trophy. Someone throws out this canard every time the subject comes up. Look, there's still going to be one, and only one, champion at the end of the night. There is going to be only one corps with the trophy, one corps performing an encore. First place is still first place; the sting of second place is still the sting of second place. The shock of a defending champ dropping to 5th place is still the shock of a defending champ dropping to 5th place. 12th is still 12th; 13th is still 13th; and last place is still last place. The corps that finishes 6th will still burn with the sting of finishing 0.05 behind the 5th -place corps with which they had been trading places all season. The corps that finishes 14th on Saturday will shed tears because they were 13th on Friday. In fact, by extending the season one more night into Saturday, you produce one more night of losers. I don't buy the participation-trophy argument.

Limiting the last night of the season to an arbitrary number of corps adds little to the competitive fire of the activity, in my view, while it burdens the long-term viability of drum corps with an assymetric cost that falls heaviest on the corps with the smallest audition numbers, the most fragile finances, the worst gate times and thus the least rehearsal time, and the most turnover. "Finalist fever" is not a profound cost; it is not the single most important reason why a  corps struggles to gain footing. But it is a cost in the margins that imposes a degree of handicap, a degree that, at least, could be lessened by getting rid of a Saturday ritual that provides, as far as I can see, no real benefit.

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10 hours ago, 2muchcoffeeman said:

. I think "finals culture" is, overall, harmful to the activity. Not completely, not in every way, but in important margins, and for a purpose that just isn't very compelling, in my view. 

The final placement has an impact on how much money corps get paid at some shows the following year, so corps outside the top 12 are financially disadvantaged in the subsequent season. .

 Its called " competition ".Students that do well, work hard in H.S. get into better schools, get better financial aid packages, etc. Those who don't do well in school, don't work hard or smartly, are on the outside looking in , and later become " financially disadvantaged in the subsequent season ( years ) ". Surely, this " culture " is not a revelation to you if you were born and raised here in the U.S..

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I seem to recall when it was being discussed that it was those in the low teens that did not want it to pass. I recall discussion about not wanting to lower the bar. That makes sense to me since top 6 or so are fighting it out for medals, 7-12 ish are fighting to be in top 6, and the next tier are fighting to be in top 12. For example, if I was in Mandarins right now I’d want to finish what we started and earn my spot; not change the rules to make it easier. Likewise, corps like Scouts are fighting to stay. I’ll be bummed if they fall out again but it’s the fight that makes it worthwhile. I also understand the arguments for change as posted previously, just offering a different perspective. 

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16 minutes ago, 2muchcoffeeman said:

The corps that finishes 14th on Saturday will shed tears because they were 13th on Friday. .

 

 Perhaps you missed entirely the reason why many choose to march the lower Corps to begin with. While competition is vitally important, if a marcher is in tears at his/ her last show, and you automatically presume they are in tears because their Corps finished their last show with a placement or score lower than they wanted, you probably don't understand why most march Drum Corps, and the Corps they chose to march with, in the first place, imo

Edited by BRASSO

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3 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

No.  The 1987 top 12 all made finals in 1988.

Well, ####, that appears to be correct. I thought I remembered Rondinaro saying that on the 06 DVD somewhere, but looks like I (or he) was incorrect.

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7 minutes ago, F15_22 said:

I seem to recall when it was being discussed that it was those in the low teens that did not want it to pass. I recall discussion about not wanting to lower the bar. That makes sense to me since top 6 or so are fighting it out for medals, 7-12 ish are fighting to be in top 6, and the next tier are fighting to be in top 12. For example, if I was in Mandarins right now I’d want to finish what we started and earn my spot; not change the rules to make it easier. Likewise, corps like Scouts are fighting to stay. I’ll be bummed if they fall out again but it’s the fight that makes it worthwhile. I also understand the arguments for change as posted previously, just offering a different perspective. 

Yeah, I can see that, and in your example I could give Mandarins props for thinking that way, to a point. Because, beyond that point, once they've cleared the bar they're so close to clearing, they become part of the thing that I believe causes harm.

Look, we're going to keep finals to 12, I know. But I also know that, even if we did run 25 corps onto the field on Saturday, the staff and members at Pioneer would still be doing the amazing hard work they're doing. Giving Pioneer a stage on Saturday isn't going to make them any less devoted to excellence.

 

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5 minutes ago, BRASSO said:

 Perhaps you missed entirely the reason why many choose to march the lower Corps to begin with. While competition is vitally important, if a marcher is in tears at his/ her last show, and you automatically presume they are in tears because their Corps finished their last show with a placement or score lower than they wanted, you probably don't understand why most march Drum Corps, and the Corps they chose to march with, in the first place, imo

No, I did not miss it, thank you. As I said, several times, finals culture is only a marginal cost. It does not apply to all members. It does not apply to those kids who choose, for whatever reasons, to remain with a single corps. It applies to enough members, however, that it creates a headwind for a corps that, if it could be lessened somewhat, the corps would have a better chance of competing another step or two up the ladder.

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11 minutes ago, F15_22 said:

I seem to recall when it was being discussed that it was those in the low teens that did not want it to pass. I recall discussion about not wanting to lower the bar. . 

 Correct. The lower Corps shed no tears that they have not made Finals. They do not want the bar lowered. They want to work hard and smartly so that should they finally make TOP 12 it will mean far more than they did through a vote at the Winter Meetings and Voila!... they're in.

 Besides, move the Finals numbers to 14 or 15, and guaranteed in no time at all, they'd be calls to make Finals Top 16, 18 or some silliness. Don't delude excellence.... expand it.... raise the bar.... not lower it. Thankfully, all the Corps Directors in Corps 13-25 look at it this way too, and are not currently shedding tears because Finals Night has been 12 since 1972, and many of them have not made it yet, or only a couple of times.

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