skevinp Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 1 hour ago, quietcity said: Steve Jobs said: Creativity is just connecting things. Picasso did not invent red. Stravinsky did not invent dissonance. Giacometti did not invent sculpture. Like any artist, they all took existing concepts and materials and put them together in innovative ways that play on our senses. The gestalt of this re-assembling process is what we experience as art, and not the viewing of individual pieces. And the gestalt is a mental processes. This is the "it" that other folks here have referred to. This is a great point. I disagree only with the term "re-assembling". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDCorno Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, StuStu said: I agree wholeheartedly. There isn't some theme or idea being crammed down your throat. I generally don't favor shows that rely on narrative/characterizations, or some other "concept". I feel like I'm charged with solving a puzzle and that is highly distracting. SCV doesn't make those demands of the audience. We are able to engage in the show on a non-literal level, and simply experience it. I understand your position, and also that of BD79-82 that you responded to. At the same time, this is the conundrum with SCV's show. [disclaimer: not lobbying for anything here, just pointing something out] It can certainly stand on its own with just music and visual and GE. BUT....watch the SCV-produced videos that have the designers talking about "Babylon" and the deep, emotional design that "they've built into the show". It's wonderfully constructed, but after watching the video, I was actually less positive about the show. Are they "shoe horning" a persona, a theme, and intent on a show that should just be a show of music and visual? Is it, or would it be wrong for any corps to just put a show out there without a name, theme or other "deeper meaning"? I don't think so, but since you assign all this meaning and theme to the show, shouldn't the corps and designers be taken to task if they're not projecting that when you watch? Phil Madden (at Atlanta) was the only person that seemed to pick up on this a bit, and had them third in GE visual rep. I don't get the Tower of Babel out of a 6-8 foot high prop...get a bit of an "urban" feel with the close quarters show design that they use throughout, and if someone didn't tell you what the nets were about, I don't think anyone here could honestly say what the intent or message was without prior explanation. Sooooo...I see what you're saying, Stu...but I think there is a theme being crammed into a show that shouldn't have to be. Since they did, they actually ARE making those demands, and if you're not getting it, then aren't they failing at the communication? I agree, I love the show and you can watch it on a non-literal level and enjoy it...but that's not how you're supposed to watch it. According to their designers. Edited August 7, 2018 by BDCorno 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skevinp Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 1 hour ago, quietcity said: There are a lot of great drum corps shows, but few truly transcend these limitations to create genuine art... BD this year seems more like a collection of great parts that do not cohere into something larger. Not agreeing or disagreeing, but it is interesting BD's show didn't have that effect for you, as it literally involves putting a bunch a pieces together to create a work of art. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted August 7, 2018 Author Share Posted August 7, 2018 2 hours ago, quietcity said: Steve Jobs said: Creativity is just connecting things. Picasso did not invent red. Stravinsky did not invent dissonance. Giacometti did not invent sculpture. Like any artist, they all took existing concepts and materials and put them together in innovative ways that play on our senses. The gestalt of this re-assembling process is what we experience as art, and not the viewing of individual pieces. And the gestalt is a mental processes. This is the "it" that other folks here have referred to. Drum corps is a highly constrained art form, given the physical limitations, the high levels of skill required by the (young) participants, the logistics, the difficulty and cost of building a design team, and the need to entertain while also competing. There are a lot of great drum corps shows, but few truly transcend these limitations to create genuine art. Fellini-esque did. Downside Up did. And now Babylon does. Session 44 comes pretty close too. On the other hand, BD this year seems more like a collection of great parts that do not cohere into something larger. 1 hour ago, BDCorno said: I understand your position, and also that of BD79-82 that you responded to. At the same time, this is the conundrum with SCV's show. [disclaimer: not lobbying for anything here, just pointing something out] It can certainly stand on its own with just music and visual and GE. BUT....watch the SCV-produced videos that have the designers talking about "Babylon" and the deep, emotional design that "they've built into the show". It's wonderfully constructed, but after watching the video, I was actually less positive about the show. Are they "shoe horning" a persona, a theme, and intent on a show that should just be a show of music and visual? Is it, or would it be wrong for any corps to just put a show out there without a name, theme or other "deeper meaning"? I don't think so, but since you assign all this meaning and theme to the show, shouldn't the corps and designers be taken to task if they're not projecting that when you watch? Phil Madden (at Atlanta) was the only person that seemed to pick up on this a bit, and had them third in GE visual rep. I don't get the Tower of Babel out of a 6-8 foot high prop...get a bit of an "urban" feel with the close quarters show design that they use throughout, and if someone didn't tell you what the nets were about, I don't think anyone here could honestly say what the intent or message was without prior explanation. Sooooo...I see what you're saying, Stu...but I think there is a theme being crammed into a show that shouldn't have to be. Since they did, they actually ARE making those demands, and if you're not getting it, then aren't they failing at the communication? I agree, I love the show and you can watch it on a non-literal level and enjoy it...but that's not how you're supposed to watch it. These two posts aren't really related to each other at all, but I find them to be the most helpful/thought provoking ones in this thread. I can agree that IF we look at innovation in art as something that has been built upon from old parts in a way that captivates like never before, SCV's show fits the bill. I also do agree that when looking SCV's show at a superficial level, it certainly reaches that level of captivation. But when you dig deeper to what the show is meant to be according to the designers, it loses that shine. So maybe it might be helpful to distinguish different types of innovation when talking about DCI shows. Examples could include innovation in concept vs innovation in design vs innovation in execution 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommeee Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 When I watch the bit where Greg Lagola explains the design of the uniforms, that's where it loses me. The justification they use for choosing a design like that is crazy. They don't even fit right. If he had done something like that when he was with the Cadets, it would have been roundly ridiculed. Are the uniforms innovative? Are they artistic? Are they popular? I don't think so. But who knows, 20 years from now, I might look back at them and love them! I love love love this topic!!! It's forcing me to question MYSELF! Do I want to see innovation, or do I want to see OLD SCHOOL? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NakedEye Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 1 hour ago, BDCorno said: I understand your position, and also that of BD79-82 that you responded to. At the same time, this is the conundrum with SCV's show. [disclaimer: not lobbying for anything here, just pointing something out] It can certainly stand on its own with just music and visual and GE. BUT....watch the SCV-produced videos that have the designers talking about "Babylon" and the deep, emotional design that "they've built into the show". It's wonderfully constructed, but after watching the video, I was actually less positive about the show. Are they "shoe horning" a persona, a theme, and intent on a show that should just be a show of music and visual? Is it, or would it be wrong for any corps to just put a show out there without a name, theme or other "deeper meaning"? I don't think so, but since you assign all this meaning and theme to the show, shouldn't the corps and designers be taken to task if they're not projecting that when you watch? Phil Madden (at Atlanta) was the only person that seemed to pick up on this a bit, and had them third in GE visual rep. I don't get the Tower of Babel out of a 6-8 foot high prop...get a bit of an "urban" feel with the close quarters show design that they use throughout, and if someone didn't tell you what the nets were about, I don't think anyone here could honestly say what the intent or message was without prior explanation. Sooooo...I see what you're saying, Stu...but I think there is a theme being crammed into a show that shouldn't have to be. Since they did, they actually ARE making those demands, and if you're not getting it, then aren't they failing at the communication? I agree, I love the show and you can watch it on a non-literal level and enjoy it...but that's not how you're supposed to watch it. According to their designers. Exactly. From the beginning of the season, the show has struck me as being something created by the designers, for the enjoyment of the designers. In their eyes, they are attempting a deep exploration of the fragility of the human condition, isolation, lack of communication and real connection. Ok sweeties, sure you are... All those lofty ideas may be great catalysts for inspiration of various parts of the design, or effective tools to help the members perform in a certain way in different parts of the show, but are those notions being communicated to the audience with industrial metal platforms, saggy diaper pants, barcodes, gymnastic back flips and mesh face masks? For the majority of the crowd, I would wager no. I love deeper meaning stuff in shows, but after multiple viewings, I still see very little of what they are talking about. What people are responding to with such enthusiasm is it is loud, extremely well-played, effectively staged, has goofy dances, bad a## face coverings, and, most importantly, the members perform every second of the show with an intensity like their lives depended on it. The kids are making the show succeed. The ones more clearly communicating their messages are BD, Bluecoats, Boston and for about 2/3 of their show, Cavaliers. But, at the end of the day, this is still a performance-focused activity, and so far SCV has consistently outperformed everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouooga Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 16 hours ago, phd-student-TTU said: Babylon is about sending a message and SCV is making it very loud and clear. The show about differing languages and the difficulty of understanding one another as a result is a loud and clear message??? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forevergreen Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 (edited) The first time I saw it. I loved it. Without digging too deep into the meaning- the music, the quality of sound, the transitions, the movement-it is done well. I still don't like their pants ( and I realize why they wear the style, complete with the pocket chain). The energy in the show is contagious though- it does not stop. What made me really love this show and feel it further communicated the theme to the show was the new ending. I don't feel they are doing anything new (the Cavaliers did sort of a hip hop dub step in 2012), but it is how they they put it together and perform. Edited August 7, 2018 by Forevergreen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nine White Russians Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 There is an almost dreamlike emotional hook to this show....and that's just watching it on YouTube! I would be blown away seeing it live! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDCorno Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 12 minutes ago, ouooga said: The show about differing languages and the difficulty of understanding one another as a result is a loud and clear message??? Exactly. My basic point is, they have oversold the program as something very deep and profound, when it would be absolutely 100% fine with no theme and no deeper intent than playing the music and doing the visual. I guess you could say the Burger King Whopper reflects the struggle of bovines vs. commercialization and exploitation by humankind. Yeah that’s it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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