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2019 Madison Scouts!


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1 hour ago, 2muchcoffeeman said:

This is an argument for stasis. The only time a corps is not in danger of folding tomorrow is if continues to rank what it has ranked in the past. Positive movement is to be celebrated; negative movement means the doors will close tomorrow.

If that's the argument, fine. Make it. I haven't heard any coherent support for it yet.

I'm not here to argue that Scouts Nation should be doing cartwheels over their current competitive standing. I'm only trying to understand why 15-20 for Scouts should be considered more disastrous for them than 15-20 is for Troopers, PacCrest, etc.

Look, I understand that competition is the engine that drives the excellence, and excellence attracts all sorts of positives -- members, support, T-shirt sales, etc. It's natural to strive to rise. It's the point of the DCI experience.

But competition is dynamic. Some rise, some fall. Yet when it comes to Scouts, we hear the argument that they cannot survive downward movement. Not that they will be bummed and bounce back, but that they will fold.

Some have said this is so because Scouts are beset with leadership that is inferior to leadership at other 15-20 corps.

Well. First, let's have the evidence, please. Lots of emotion and speculation and character-centered accusation flying around, but not much actual hard data. And no, the ranking itself is not evidence. PacCrest is in 15-20 land, too, and apparently their leadership is just fine. The Scouts naysayers say practically everyone else has superior leadership, yet we don't hear any of them claiming that Troopers need to climb out of 15-20 to survive.

What gets under my skin is the underlying contention that there ought to be a natural order to DCI, and it requires Scouts to be ranked in the Top 12. It's fine for Colts to dwell in 15-20 land, but not Scouts, by God. A Scouts organization outside the Top 12 is a Scouts organization no more.

Spare me. Spare the Colts. Spare all those who labor outside the Top 12 and manage to deliver positive, life-changing experiences to the young people who voluntarily give up their summers for their non-Scouts corps -- and to drive paying audiences to their feet in the process.

What's happened with the Scouts is not unnatural. Their current reality is the year-in-year-out reality for much of the population of DCI. It's not a crisis of existence. I'd say the same about Cadets and their travails this season.

You argue against a natural order mindset that Scouts should be perennial contenders, then say that what’s now happening to Scouts is...wait for it....natural. 

You rant for half a page and complain about lots of emotions. 

You wonder why, on a Scouts thread, you don’t see consternation about Pacific Crest. 

You can’t make this stuff up. 

You want to think everything is fine and dandy for Scouts, go ahead. I don’t care. I think their leadership team is a disaster, the MMs deserve better, and their downward trajectory is very disturbing. I’m pretty certain you’re not going to change my mind. 

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1999 was a good ways back, but that's why I said in the big scheme of DCI history. If we're talking 1960s or 70s..then sure. But 1999 wasn't THAT long ago.

As for other corps, I'm not saying they should just be satisfied with where they're at. But the reality is those corps, with the exception of Troopers to an extent, don't have the history of success as Scouts. 

But frankly, I don't care what expectations are for corps X, Y or Z. As an alum of Scouts I expect them to be a consistent Top 12 group and hope for even better. I expect them to be a corps that younger marchers dream of being a part of. I expect them to be a corps with an average age of 19 or 20. I expect them to be a corps that challenges the other upper echelon.

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1 hour ago, PamahoNow said:

Well, their last stretch of "Top 6" ended in 1999.  Which is 20 years ago, right?  

Not that it makes a difference, but the 2005 corps was "Top 6" and as I recall spent a good portion of the season ranked near the top.  The 2005 show was outstanding!!!

And they had a great design team and some awesome caption heads.

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4 minutes ago, oldbandguy said:

Not that it makes a difference, but the 2005 corps was "Top 6" and as I recall spent a good portion of the season ranked near the top.  The 2005 show was outstanding!!!

And they had a great design team and some awesome caption heads.

Yeah,  I noted that once in the last 20 years they were 6th.  One year does not make a trend. If there is a trend, during the last 20 years they have been in double digits more and more frequently.  

It would be good to see that change.

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3 hours ago, 2muchcoffeeman said:

Destination vs. feeder . . . . "perennial top 6" vs. "Always been around the 15-20 range"

This is the natural order argument. Scouts must be top 6. Any other ranking is a disorder in the pre-ordained arrangement of the cosmos. All others corps should be happy to accept their place as feeders. That's how nature intends it.

As an argument, it sure explains why alums might be consternated at the moment. But it still fails to answer why their consternation should be any greater than that of any other 15-20 corps. It relies on history to explain today, and I've not yet seen any reason why the Scout's history should count for more than the history of any 15-20 corps.

The Troopers 2019 thread is 6 pages long; the Scouts thread is now 142 pages. That should tell you something about the level of interest and expectations for those corps among both alumni and long time drum corps fans.

Scouts made DCI finals every year from 1973 - 2001 and won DCI twice.  None of the perennial 15-25 place corps you mentioned earlier begin to compare to Madison in terms of their place in the history of drum & bugle corps. Not everybody was born in the 1990s or later. And many of us experienced and remember every year of DCI's existence and many, many years before that. What's happened to the Scouts is indeed sad.

Edited by WarriorHal
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6 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

If we are going to take scores from different contests out of context, then the Hawthorne Caballeros are also ahead of Madison. 

The rankings are what they are. Clearly there haven't been head-to-head competitions for all corps, but it's illustrative that the scores Madison is earning are lower than 19 other corps. When the season started and the scores from the East and West were being posted it was obvious who the front runners were. The only question was who would be at the top of the heap when everyone started competing directly against each other. Applying Bayesian probability to the current ranking by scores indicates that Madison will end up between 17th and 19th after Semi-Finals. If the Caballeros are scored on the same sheets and judging system as DCI, then you would be correct based on scores, but Hawthorne marches members who are not eligible to march in "junior" corps, making a true comparison impossible.  

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23 minutes ago, WarriorHal said:

The Troopers 2019 thread is 6 pages long; the Scouts thread is now 142 pages. 

Scouts made DCI finals every year from 1973 - 2001 and won DCI twice. 

And many of us experienced and remember every year of DCI's existence and many, many years before that. What's happened to the Scouts is indeed sad.

This is where those of us with a historical perspective have a different mindset than those who are reading about historical drum corps. I understand how people can think of Madison as a non-contender, but for those of us who grew up looking at the Scouts as drum corps gods it seems the universe is out of whack when they aren't neck and neck with BD, SCV, Regiment, Cadets, and the other all male green team.

The alumni from the beginning of DCI through the first two decades of DCI have a muscle memory that is hard to shake. I recall distinctly when Star came out of nowhere and upset the status quo. They were good then great and then they won! A corps with 0 history took the activity by storm and disappeared just as quickly as the arrived. When they left, the universe returned to normal!

There will always be debates about which era of drum corps was the best, but when a consistent top 6 contender is being outscored by junior corps there is no way to hide that is something amiss. 

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51 minutes ago, WarriorHal said:

The Troopers 2019 thread is 6 pages long; the Scouts thread is now 142 pages. That should tell you something about the level of interest and expectations for those corps among both alumni and long time drum corps fans.

Exactly.

Madison has already won the off season and the season hasn’t even ended yet.  Looking forward to what the new Scouts bring. I truly believe they will be the next “hot” corps - providing management and staff can take advantage of the opportunity. Make no mistake, they have a HUGE opportunity to return to competitive relavency.

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