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On 4/21/2019 at 2:02 PM, Land_Surfer said:

And they M&M’d the whole time.  Today’s performers are obviously no longer the musicians they once were, and why should they be when supplemented by electronics and loud speakers, and show’s are being designed around visuals.  Before long football fields will no longer be good enough.  

this would be hysterical if i didn't realize you were actually serious

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16 hours ago, Sutasaurus said:

Agreed. Fire of Eternal Glory would not be given time to develop as it did long, long to go. That was the point I tried to make earlier........ as for the direction of the activity? Not my cup of tea ...so I have moved on.

I'm all for self-proclaimed dinos making relevant points (for example, there is quantifiably less dot-to-dot drill now than there was ten years ago) but the claim that Fire of Eternal Glory wouldn't be given the time to develop by today's music arrangers is demonstrably false.

Being generous with a few seconds on either end of the performance, one could reasonably call the '93 FOEG segment three minutes long, from initial count off to putting the helmets back on in silence. Examples from 2018 of ballads being given time to develop:

SCV's "My Body Is a Cage" clocks in at 2:30 from start to finish, just 30 seconds shy of FOEG, and if you think that's not an example along the lines of FOEG in that it's a simple, hummable melody that is freely & organically allowed to build from a plain idea into a massive full ensemble chorus over a relatively long period of time, then you simply weren't listening this year.

Bloo's "Saro" was a bit more modernized, I'll give you that, since it didn't begin and finish with silence, and the singer wove in "God Bless the Child", but I think the example still stands: a ballad that is allowed to ebb & flow and build organically, as the original music intended. Now, at 2:10ish, it's almost a full minute shorter than FOEG, but it's another CLEAR example of a melody being given the space in time that it needed to fully and leisurely develop in the same manner as FOEG.

Crown's "If I Fell", while not my favorite ballad of the year, is another undeniable example: a clear melody that is given tons of time to build from a few simple voices to a huge full ensemble statement of the same melody. This one clocks in at almost exactly three minutes, matching FOEG.

As a huge Sigur Ros fan, I thought Cadet's treatment of "Ara Batur" was pretty spot on and true to the original piece. Now, the original piece is almost 10 minutes long, so obviously they cut a few repetitions of the melody out in a way that the previous examples didn't need to (all source material previously mentioned is 2-3 minutes long), but the point is still there: a simple, hummable melody that is presented unaltered by the corps and allowed to grow slowly & fluidly. At 2:45, it landed just 15 seconds short of FOEG, and definitely made a similar point.

BK's treatment of Radiohead's "Exit Music" this year clocked in at an unaltered 2:30 devoted to just that song.

This example strays a little, since it's not as straightforward, but Mandarins had a GLORIOUS 2:45 second build BEFORE they unleashed on the True Colors melody, and a total ballad time of 3:45, almost a full minute longer than FOEG, and I don't think you'd find a single person from last season who didn't think their show was brilliant. Again, this example is a little different, since so much of the build is drumline and has very little to do with the True Colors melody, but if you don't think that's a long, slow, rise & fall build all the way to the giant pay off of an impact, then you aren't listening properly. It's the perfect example of allowing an entire section of a show to take the time it needs to develop.

Music City's "Hallelujah" developed beautifully & fully over about 2:30 minutes.

And that's just a rough perusal of THIS PAST SEASON ONLY. Really, to say FOEG wouldn't be given the time to develop nowadays is just....not true. I don't know how else to put it. 

Just in case I need to hammer this point home further, other recent examples of long, slowly-developing ballads:

Bloo's Hymn of Axciom clocks in at at 3:15.

Crown's interpretation of Giazotto's "Adagio" was 2:20m and the Lost ballad in 2014 as 2:55.

How could anyone forget The Academy's "Unchained Melody"???? At a full 3:30, it's an unquestionable example of a recent crowd favorite that easily matches (and surpasses!) the FOEG example.

Hell, let's even get BD in there too! While I will admit that allowing full, unaltered melodies to blossom and grow organically isn't their style, they did it as recently as 2016 with Fernando Valezquez's music from "The Impossibles": a full 2:55 ballad of the same gorgeous melody woven over and over as it builds slowly to a glorious climax.

 

Edited by Jake W.
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Excellent point. The best example for me of that sustained moment to this day is still '87 Cadets. It was a 12 minute sustained musical moment LOL. 

And they M&M’d the whole time.

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49 minutes ago, Jake W. said:

I'm all for self-proclaimed dinos making relevant points (for example, there is quantifiably less dot-to-dot drill now than there was ten years ago) but the claim that Fire of Eternal Glory wouldn't be given the time to develop by today's music arrangers is demonstrably false.

Being generous with a few seconds on either end of the performance, one could reasonably call the '93 FOEG segment three minutes long, from initial count off to putting the helmets back on in silence. Examples from 2018 of ballads being given time to develop:

SCV's "My Body Is a Cage" clocks in at 2:30 from start to finish, just 30 seconds shy of FOEG, and if you think that's not an example along the lines of FOEG in that it's a simple, hummable melody that is freely & organically allowed to build from a plain idea into a massive full ensemble chorus over a relatively long period of time, then you simply weren't listening this year.

Bloo's "Saro" was a bit more modernized, I'll give you that, since it didn't begin and finish with silence, and the singer wove in "God Bless the Child", but I think the example still stands: a ballad that is allowed to ebb & flow and build organically, as the original music intended. Now, at 2:10ish, it's almost a full minute shorter than FOEG, but it's another CLEAR example of a melody being given the space in time that it needed to fully and leisurely develop in the same manner as FOEG.

Crown's "If I Fell", while not my favorite ballad of the year, is another undeniable example: a clear melody that is given tons of time to build from a few simple voices to a huge full ensemble statement of the same melody. This one clocks in at almost exactly three minutes, matching FOEG.

As a huge Sigur Ros fan, I thought Cadet's treatment of "Ara Batur" was pretty spot on and true to the original piece. Now, the original piece is almost 10 minutes long, so obviously they cut a few repetitions of the melody out in a way that the previous examples didn't need to (all source material previously mentioned is 2-3 minutes long), but the point is still there: a simple, hummable melody that is presented unaltered by the corps and allowed to grow slowly & fluidly. At 2:45, it landed just 15 seconds short of FOEG, and definitely made a similar point.

BK's treatment of Radiohead's "Exit Music" this year clocked in at an unaltered 2:30 devoted to just that song.

This example strays a little, since it's not as straightforward, but Mandarins had a GLORIOUS 2:45 second build BEFORE they unleashed on the True Colors melody, and a total ballad time of 3:45, almost a full minute longer than FOEG, and I don't think you'd find a single person from last season who didn't think their show was brilliant. Again, this example is a little different, since so much of the build is drumline and has very little to do with the True Colors melody, but if you don't think that's a long, slow, rise & fall build all the way to the giant pay off of an impact, then you aren't listening properly. It's the perfect example of allowing an entire section of a show to take the time it needs to develop.

Music City's "Hallelujah" developed beautifully & fully over about 2:30 minutes.

And that's just a rough perusal of THIS PAST SEASON ONLY. Really, to say FOEG wouldn't be given the time to develop nowadays is just....not true. I don't know how else to put it. 

Just in case I need to hammer this point home further, other recent examples of long, slowly-developing ballads:

Bloo's Hymn of Axciom clocks in at at 3:15.

Crown's interpretation of Giazotto's "Adagio" was 2:20m and the Lost ballad in 2014 as 2:55.

How could anyone forget The Academy's "Unchained Melody"???? At a full 3:30, it's an unquestionable example of a recent crowd favorite that easily matches (and surpasses!) the FOEG example.

Hell, let's even get BD in there too! While I will admit that allowing full, unaltered melodies to blossom and grow organically isn't their style, they did it as recently as 2016 with Fernando Valezquez's music from "The Impossibles": a full 2:55 ballad of the same gorgeous melody woven over and over as it builds slowly to a glorious climax.

 

I will go back and listen to all of these!

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On 4/21/2019 at 5:17 AM, Weaklefthand4ever said:

Since it's inception PR has averaged 6th place. From 1996 to 2008, they averaged 5th. From 2008 to 2018, they averaged 7th. The whole "PR is doomed and we will need a new designer and a goat to sacrifice to drum corps gods" just seems a bit overly dramatic to me. They've shifted an average of 2 places 22 years. That's just not a huge shift if you put it into perspective. /shrug

I don't think people are being overly dramatic.

2012- 3rd

2013 - 6th

2014 - 7th

2015 - 7th

2016 - 8th

2017 - 9th

2018 - 11th

That's a steady downward trend. Averages don't matter in this case. In the periods you illustrated, they had highs and lows here and there, but there was never a downward trend that spanned several years. I absolutely believe they are at serious risk of missing finals in 2019. From a design perspective, everyone else in the top 15 (and some below 16th) out-designed them. With each successive year the design gets worse and worse, and they are not a big draw talent wise anymore. Both of of those facts are alarming. They have to start with design. A less talented corps with a great design can beat a more talented corps with a weaker design. We've seen in many many times. That, is where they need to start.

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21 minutes ago, queenanne_1536 said:

I don't think people are being overly dramatic.

2012- 3rd

2013 - 6th

2014 - 7th

2015 - 7th

2016 - 8th

2017 - 9th

2018 - 11th

That's a steady downward trend. Averages don't matter in this case. In the periods you illustrated, they had highs and lows here and there, but there was never a downward trend that spanned several years. I absolutely believe they are at serious risk of missing finals in 2019. From a design perspective, everyone else in the top 15 (and some below 16th) out-designed them. With each successive year the design gets worse and worse, and they are not a big draw talent wise anymore. Both of of those facts are alarming. They have to start with design. A less talented corps with a great design can beat a more talented corps with a weaker design. We've seen in many many times. That, is where they need to start.

Ok, that's a stretch.  Even "I" the one for over-exaggeration wouldn't claim that.  They need music then worry about design.  Until they fix that no matter how they massage that turd it won't matter.  Drawing talent means almost NOTHING and the fact people keep harping this doesn't change the fact that the little corps play anymore you should be able to teach almost anyone that's at least mediocre to good to play perfect.  They need to be Phantom Regiment on steroids again and stop trying to be like everyone else.  Personally I thought the marching of the top 15 was incredibad.  From foot phasing, intervals (when you had them) to form there was a LOT of crapola out there.  It seems everyone is so concerned about where they plan to stand/sit on a prop they forget how to get there that doesn't look like 6 minutes of scatter drill.  Of course this is in the opinion of a dino.

 

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7 minutes ago, Mello Dude said:

Ok, that's a stretch.  Even "I" the one for over-exaggeration wouldn't claim that.  They need music then worry about design.  Until they fix that no matter how they massage that turd it won't matter.  Drawing talent means almost NOTHING and the fact people keep harping this doesn't change the fact that the little corps play anymore you should be able to teach almost anyone that's at least mediocre to good to play perfect.  They need to be Phantom Regiment on steroids again and stop trying to be like everyone else.  Personally I thought the marching of the top 15 was incredibad.  From foot phasing, intervals (when you had them) to form there was a LOT of crapola out there.  It seems everyone is so concerned about where they plan to stand/sit on a prop they forget how to get there that doesn't look like 6 minutes of scatter drill.  Of course this is in the opinion of a dino.

 

Look at 2018. A fairly mediocre design musically and visually, that probably should have not made the top 12. This New World did not give us anything 'new'. It was badly re-hashed elements of New World that should have been left alone. Staging was awful, the props were nonsensical, the whole thing screamed 'bad BOA show'. I didn't think the design could be worse than 2017, but somehow they managed. 2017 COULD have been at the very least interesting, but the staging was horrible and the arrangements sub-par.

The corps has not designed to upper echelon attributes since 2012! I agree, and have pointed out, the corps downward trajectory. What would "Regiment on Steroids' look like? Would it be competitive in todays environment, or doesn't that matter anymore to those that want the Regiment to 'do their thing'?

Unless you are 'all in', you are going to be 'all out' come Saturday night. That is where I see this heading, and it pains me to say this. Pretty much everyone in the top 15 had 'all in' shows, the two most notable exceptions, Regiment and to a degree Xmen (though I liked their show). But you'll notice who finished at the bottom.

Music over design has apparently not been working out too well for them because, the music has been lacking. I do agree that, with the limited number minutes brass players have today, they should be able to arrange something amazing and have it perfected.    

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5 hours ago, queenanne_1536 said:

don't think people are being overly dramatic.

2012- 3rd

2013 - 6th

2014 - 7th

2015 - 7th

2016 - 8th

2017 - 9th

2018 - 11th

That's a steady downward trend. Averages don't matter in this case. In the periods you illustrated, they had highs and lows here and there, but there was never a downward trend that spanned several years. I absolutely believe they are at serious risk of missing finals in 2019. From a design perspective, everyone else in the top 15 (and some below 16th) out-designed them. With each successive year the design gets worse and worse, and they are not a big draw talent wise anymore. Both of of those facts are alarming. They have to start with design. A less talented corps with a great design can beat a more talented corps with a weaker design. We've seen in many many times. That, is where they need to start.

I think there's some pretty credible points here. Yes, there is certainly a downward trend and the captions certainly show a gap in GE. I still don't feel as though it's a PR going south thing as much as it is PR being stagnant. Certain shows have shown moments of brilliance (2010) but when everyone in the top 6 is also brilliant, you have to have more of those moments than anyone else. Right now, those moments are about staging. You either learn to play the game, or you lose. Corps don't generally change the dynamics of the game single handedly. 

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thank u all for being such an amazing community, just wanted to say that, goodnight

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, xandandl said:

Excellent point. The best example for me of that sustained moment to this day is still '87 Cadets. It was a 12 minute sustained musical moment LOL. 

And they M&M’d the whole time.

You’re telling me they marched, played AND ate M&Ms the whole show?  Holy cow no wonder they won. 

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