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Santa Clara Vanguard 2019


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Just now, MidWAmericanArts said:

I’d imagine that it doesn’t even register. He’s a professional, the best of the best. He did his job - to rank and rate the percussion of each corps. He fairly evaluated the corps and rated them as he saw it without considering implications, which is what a judge should be doing.

It’s really easy for us to call out him specifically, but you could really say this about any judge’s rating.

I could and I might, but SCV by most all educated opinions had the best drum line this year, and they won percussion in every single contest they were in except one. Just saying.

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1 minute ago, DAYGO said:

They had more marching demand than you are giving them credit for, certainly more than a "concert band".  

They didn’t have the strong typical marching demand in terms of ridiculous drill, but their hornline’s dance work was the most demanding and impressive of the night. Might not be everyone’s cup of tea, but that deserves credit. I think most people would find it easier to march 16 counts of difficult drill at 180 than to perform 16 counts of difficult dance work. It’s relatively easy to learn 16 counts of drill, but filling 16 counts with dance specific to that moment takes time and new skills.

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7 minutes ago, MikeRapp said:

I could and I might, but SCV by most all educated opinions had the best drum line this year, and they won percussion in every single contest they were in except one. Just saying.

There were several shows that BD beat SCV in one of the two sub captions. The same thing happened last night, with just a slight edge to BD. The score came from the best judge in the percussive activity, who NOBODY has ever complained about until it negatively impacted their corps last night. Maybe he was wrong. Maybe he was in the right position to evaluate something that others judges had missed. Maybe he spent more time evaluating the front ensemble than other judges have. Maybe SCV didn’t have their most stellar run. I have no idea! But I think most educated opinions would also depend on the wisdom of Prosperie’s field level read, rather than their own less educated view from a worse view.

Their are judges’ opinions that I don’t always agree with, but I trust their more informed professional judgement than my own, especially when they are the most respected in the activity.

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38 minutes ago, MikeRapp said:

I seriously do wonder how Jeff feels about the result of last night, knowing that in essence his decision to put BD ahead of the Sanford winner on the last night of competition determined the gold. Not being facetious, truly wonder how he feels about it. Jeff is in fact among the most trusted and respected judges in DCI history for a reason.

Not sure how exactly it determined the gold. BD was phenomenal in prelims and semis. I didn't watch finals last ngiht but I'm sure their placement was well deserved. With only 12 groups to score he left an appropriate gap in numbers as he saw fit. BD and SCV were clearly better than Bluecoats in percussion. That is just how it is. Why not blame the Bluecoats 3rd place color guard or the CG judge for costing them the gap too? Both groups were very good. A collective group of 11 judges felt BD was just a bit better last night.

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9 minutes ago, gbass598 said:

Not sure how exactly it determined the gold. BD was phenomenal in prelims and semis. I didn't watch finals last ngiht but I'm sure their placement was well deserved. With only 12 groups to score he left an appropriate gap in numbers as he saw fit. BD and SCV were clearly better than Bluecoats in percussion. That is just how it is. Why not blame the Bluecoats 3rd place color guard or the CG judge for costing them the gap too? Both groups were very good. A collective group of 11 judges felt BD was just a bit better last night.

Not all judges put BD ahead of Bluecoats last night.

The way DCI judges is the way DCI judges. It is, fundamentally, a subjective decision to rank one performance ahead of another. You can have guidelines and rules but in the end people make subjective decisions. If Jeff thinks BD was better on the last night of competition, then that’s how he will judge it. If someone else was sitting in his seat last night he or she may well have felt differently.

Edited by MikeRapp
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To be clear, my issue is and has always been how DCI does scoring. Everyone here who knows me knows this. I think scoring is a self fulfilling prophecy in this activity. You have rules drawn up by the member corps, weighted by the corps most capable of executing within those rules, and then those corps hire the judges to judge them against those rules.

Furthermore you have a completely arbitrary numeric system that for some reason starts in the 70s and always ends in the high 90s, despite the fact that the corps are phenomenally more capable today than they were even 10 years ago. Every corps magically gets a tiny bit better every night, almost no one ever steps backward, and the same judges who judge most of the other major shows judge Finals. And they are the same judges who judged Finals for years, and in some cases decades.

you have no salary cap, no transfer rules, and no cap on staff. You have the Yankees and the Dodgers of the 50s, going up against franchises that have a fourth the income and even less of a fan base. It is not ever going to yield a fair and equitable result for all members.

And again, I don’t have a better system! God knows I’ve tried to think of one!

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8 minutes ago, MikeRapp said:

To be clear, my issue is and has always been how DCI does scoring. Everyone here who knows me knows this. I think scoring is a self fulfilling prophecy in this activity. You have rules drawn up by the member corps, weighted by the corps most capable of executing within those rules, and then those corps hire the judges to judge them against those rules.

Furthermore you have a completely arbitrary numeric system that for some reason starts in the 70s and always ends in the high 90s, despite the fact that the corps are phenomenally more capable today than they were even 10 years ago. Every corps magically gets a tiny bit better every night, almost no one ever steps backward, and the same judges who judge most of the other major shows judge Finals. And they are the same judges who judged Finals for years, and in some cases decades.

you have no salary cap, no transfer rules, and no cap on staff. You have the Yankees and the Dodgers of the 50s, going up against franchises that have a fourth the income and even less of a fan base. It is not ever going to yield a fair and equitable result for all members. 

And again, I don’t have a better system! God knows I’ve tried to think of one!

I still think that not allowing ties in each judging category leads to big problems with the overall rankings after all 11 judges' scores are added up together.  I'd like to hear what a statistician would say about this system.  Say you have say 5 groups deserving a 9.4 in one category. It really shakes out to 9.2, 9.25, 9.3, 9.35, 9.4, 9.45 or worse.  That .25 spread on what should be a tie is a big problem in tight competitions.  Now if they all actually got a 9.4, would those 5 groups tie in the final score?  It seems unlikely given there are 10 other judges' scores.

Trying to score the top 10 groups with only 21 points that range from 9.0 to 10 that does not allow ties is just too inaccurate.  Doing that across 11 judges is really inaccurate.  The only scoring I trust is the ranks of individual judges.  The way the 11 judges add up to a winner does not seem accurate to me at all.

 

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2 hours ago, MikeRapp said:

To be clear, my issue is and has always been how DCI does scoring. Everyone here who knows me knows this. I think scoring is a self fulfilling prophecy in this activity. You have rules drawn up by the member corps, weighted by the corps most capable of executing within those rules, and then those corps hire the judges to judge them against those rules.

Furthermore you have a completely arbitrary numeric system that for some reason starts in the 70s and always ends in the high 90s, despite the fact that the corps are phenomenally more capable today than they were even 10 years ago. Every corps magically gets a tiny bit better every night, almost no one ever steps backward, and the same judges who judge most of the other major shows judge Finals. And they are the same judges who judged Finals for years, and in some cases decades.

you have no salary cap, no transfer rules, and no cap on staff. You have the Yankees and the Dodgers of the 50s, going up against franchises that have a fourth the income and even less of a fan base. It is not ever going to yield a fair and equitable result for all members.

And again, I don’t have a better system! God knows I’ve tried to think of one!

I agree with the vast majority of what you said. What I don’t quite understand is why you’re fighting the way things are judged. These are the parameters and everyone has an equal chance of achievement under the scoring. Some days it might work in your favor, some days it won’t. The problem comes when you try throwing a subjective art form into a system that everyone demands consistency from. It’s never going to be perfect because people have different opinions.

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m 100% for improving the system. I’m just not quite the person to demand change without any solution. The people that I usually hear complain are the ones demanding that GE become a popularity contest, without any legitimate system to accurately gauge popularity. Propose some legitimate solutions and watch how quickly people can tear them apart! (This criticism isn’t specifically at you, moreso at some DCP members that keep complaining about scores)

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4 minutes ago, MidWAmericanArts said:

I agree with the vast majority of what you said. What I don’t quite understand is why you’re fighting the way things are judged. These are the parameters and everyone has an equal chance of achievement under the scoring. Some days it might work in your favor, some days it won’t. The problem comes when you try throwing a subjective art form into a system that everyone demands consistency from. It’s never going to be perfect because people have different opinions.

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m 100% for improving the system. I’m just not quite the person to demand change without any solution. The people that I usually hear complain are the ones demanding that GE become a popularity contest, without any legitimate system to accurately gauge popularity. Propose some legitimate solutions and watch how quickly people can tear them apart! (This criticism isn’t specifically at you, moreso at some DCP members that keep complaining about scores)

So long as we silly members of DCP can accurately predict right now what next year’s top six will be, and probably the likely order, tells you how silly the scoring system is. I don’t have a good alternative. Capping all scores at 100 pretty much determines what we have now. Imagine if football was played with a max score of 20 per team!

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2 minutes ago, MikeRapp said:

So long as we silly members of DCP can accurately predict right now what next year’s top six will be, and probably the likely order, tells you how silly the scoring system is. I don’t have a good alternative. Capping all scores at 100 pretty much determines what we have now. Imagine if football was played with a max score of 20 per team!

Uh... I’m pretty sure everyone was talking about Crown and SCV winning before the season started...

I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to argue with the 100 cap. If you’re upset that you can’t compare 2019 scores to 2018, you’d be correct, but I’m not sure why you’d want to compare scores between years when you can’t even support the scoring system for one year.

And then you complain about how things are predetermined and you know who is going to win, but get angry when a judge placed BD ahead in percussion? I’d think that would be exactly what you were hoping for.

And comparing it to football, I don’t even know where to start. Points don’t represent how good the team is. The only thing it does is tell us a winner. A team that wins 9-0 would be dominant. One that scores 62-53 would probably be considered less dominant. A team doesn’t care if they win by 1 or 50, a win is a win. You’re competing against one team at a time and the goal is to keep their score lower than yours. Blue Devils aren’t trying to limit what others corps are scoring, they’re trying to perform their best show. I.... don’t understand one bit of the argument.

I’m not trying to shut you down and say that you’re wrong, I suppose I just don’t even comprehend any bit of the points that you’re trying to make. But to each their own! Sorry that things didn’t work out your way!

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