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2 hours ago, Incognito365 said:

The drill was "pretty" and flowing. Honestly a more disgruntled, gritty, messy, and disconected drill package would have worked better. The most drill writing I've ever done is mess around on Micro Marching and the $40 program I bought from the App Store so I can't get down to specifics without sounding like an idiot, but to me the drill was too "symphonic" and too "pretty". I'm sure this makes absolutely zero sense though. Lol.

If you listened to the Klesch/Hannum discussion about Beast (i think this was on the marching arts education site) ,  the design is pretty sophisticated musically but left the visual designers struggling to interpret it.  IMHO the problem with Beast started and ended with this disconnect -- the visual guys didn't have much to work with and clearly struggled to bring the show to life.  Hopefully they've learned their lesson :fight: The visual guys need lead the design process because if they don't have a clear vision,  the production is just not going to work.  They also have not hit their stride in the guard choreography department ( as evidenced by the off-season staff moves).  

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18 hours ago, karuna said:

If you listened to the Klesch/Hannum discussion about Beast (i think this was on the marching arts education site) ,  the design is pretty sophisticated musically but left the visual designers struggling to interpret it.  IMHO the problem with Beast started and ended with this disconnect -- the visual guys didn't have much to work with and clearly struggled to bring the show to life.  Hopefully they've learned their lesson :fight: The visual guys need lead the design process because if they don't have a clear vision,  the production is just not going to work.  They also have not hit their stride in the guard choreography department ( as evidenced by the off-season staff moves).  

I disagree about visual staff leading, because then again you would be left with the visual team knowing what they want but the music team left scratching their heads. What needs to happen is they need to sit down and work together. 

 

"Heres what were envisioning..."

"Okay, would this work with it?"

 

Round table discussion design I think would work best. I'm not sure whats going on with the guard. In my opinion, they're still rebuilding. My only issues is even with the design team working together, I still don't think sacktigs writing works well with Kleschs arrangements.

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2 hours ago, Incognito365 said:

I disagree about visual staff leading, because then again you would be left with the visual team knowing what they want but the music team left scratching their heads. What needs to happen is they need to sit down and work together.

Music is pretty versital. Given the right visuals, there are a plethora of ways to interpret music. Think of the countless pieces of music that have been used by several different corps over the years and the many different ways that music was used to fit each show differently. I tend to agree that the visual team should have their opinions weighted more than anyone else’s. 

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6 hours ago, crownisking said:

Music is pretty versital. Given the right visuals, there are a plethora of ways to interpret music. Think of the countless pieces of music that have been used by several different corps over the years and the many different ways that music was used to fit each show differently. I tend to agree that the visual team should have their opinions weighted more than anyone else’s. 

Exactly.  Given the right arranger, instructional team and performers., finding and adapting music to fit visual is very achievable.

OTOH a brilliant musical design does not necessarily lend itself to be expressed on the drum corps field.  The visual (by necessity) needs to be there.

Now -- that doesn't meant that some piece of amazing music which excites the entire team can't be used as the foundation to "build" a show.  That's been done quite often and very successfully.  But the concept needs to have a very concrete visual expression.   The visual medium has far more limitations than the musical medium.   

Incognito is right in so far as the design process is highly collaborative BUT the core visual expression needs to exist to move forward.  How does the concept get expressed intellectually,  emotionally, and aesthetically by the performers on the field?  That vision needs to exist before the first note is put to paper.  (And it's not a new problem at Crown.  Look at 2014 for example.  Great musical design but the trampolines never expressed weightlessness because...well...the effect only lasts at the millisecond apex of the bounce;  the rest of the time gravity is very much in evidence.  The major effect of the show just didn't work at all and so...it fell short).  

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Im not saying they need to talk on the phone or something, I'm saying before ANYTHING is done on either side, they need to sit down and round table the discussion. While music is versatile, sometimes its near impossible for a arranger to work with the visual designer to get a cohesive product on the field. Folks want to complain that one section reigns supreme over the other, so why not work together before anything is set anywhere?

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1 hour ago, Incognito365 said:

Im not saying they need to talk on the phone or something, I'm saying before ANYTHING is done on either side, they need to sit down and round table the discussion. While music is versatile, sometimes its near impossible for a arranger to work with the visual designer to get a cohesive product on the field. Folks want to complain that one section reigns supreme over the other, so why not work together before anything is set anywhere?

Bingo.  Collaboration is paramount these days.  Music should be done before drill, and drill should be done before music.  Designers need to spend a lot of time planning every aspect of a program before anyone puts pen to paper.  The Artistic Director or whomever is in charge of pulling all elements together in a cohesive sensible program and vision should listen to all input, offer their own, get full team buy-in then start designing the program as a single entity.  Drill coming first and hoping music be made to fit the big visuals, would be a disaster.

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4 hours ago, Incognito365 said:

Im not saying they need to talk on the phone or something, I'm saying before ANYTHING is done on either side, they need to sit down and round table the discussion. While music is versatile, sometimes its near impossible for a arranger to work with the visual designer to get a cohesive product on the field. Folks want to complain that one section reigns supreme over the other, so why not work together before anything is set anywhere?

This mostly refers to judging the completed product. where visual (esp. guard) seems to be weighted more heavily.

In the design process we're at the opposite end of the spectrum where it's just ideas and mp3s.    

The visual ideas need to be very concrete before moving forward.  That doesn't mean dots on papers (although it can mean drill ideas).  It just means we know precisely how these concepts can successfully be brought to life by the performers.   Doing your homework early is key.  Hand-waving in the design room has killed many a great show.   

Honestly even if you do it all correctly it still might not work when you get it all out on the field under the lights.  

A lot of BDs success comes from their ability organically build a production during the season.   But you need designers who can literally finish each other's sentences and performers who are talented and mature enough to handle themselves in that kind of environment.  

Anyway getting back to Crown,  have faith brother.   It's all been just a tiny bump in the road;  magic is happening there.

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5 hours ago, karuna said:

This mostly refers to judging the completed product. where visual (esp. guard) seems to be weighted more heavily.

In the design process we're at the opposite end of the spectrum where it's just ideas and mp3s.    

The visual ideas need to be very concrete before moving forward.  That doesn't mean dots on papers (although it can mean drill ideas).  It just means we know precisely how these concepts can successfully be brought to life by the performers.   Doing your homework early is key.  Hand-waving in the design room has killed many a great show.   

Honestly even if you do it all correctly it still might not work when you get it all out on the field under the lights.  

A lot of BDs success comes from their ability organically build a production during the season.   But you need designers who can literally finish each other's sentences and performers who are talented and mature enough to handle themselves in that kind of environment.  

Anyway getting back to Crown,  have faith brother.   It's all been just a tiny bump in the road;  magic is happening there.

Thats not at all what I was talking about. 

 

Folks want to complain that music takes front seat in the Crown organization (specifically the brass writing).

 

You say visual should come first, then music. What would happen then?

 

This is what i meant by no section should come first, but rather should sit down together and round table discuss the options, ideas, etc. Then and ONLY then should a single note, stitch, dot, prop be placed.

 

Cohesive, no divisive.

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4 hours ago, Incognito365 said:

Thats not at all what I was talking about. 

 

Folks want to complain that music takes front seat in the Crown organization (specifically the brass writing).

 

You say visual should come first, then music. What would happen then?

 

This is what i meant by no section should come first, but rather should sit down together and round table discuss the options, ideas, etc. Then and ONLY then should a single note, stitch, dot, prop be placed.

 

Cohesive, no divisive.

Ah -- well we agree wholeheartedly.  I'm not suggesting any particular section is more important -- just that (by it's nature) visual design is not as versatile. So naturally you need to ensure that the visual team has a very clear vision of how the performers will bring the show to life before settling on music.   Additionally we need to be able see what we're hearing (and vice versa).  

 

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17 hours ago, karuna said:

Ah -- well we agree wholeheartedly.  I'm not suggesting any particular section is more important -- just that (by it's nature) visual design is not as versatile. So naturally you need to ensure that the visual team has a very clear vision of how the performers will bring the show to life before settling on music.   Additionally we need to be able see what we're hearing (and vice versa).  

 

Agreed, hence sitting down together instead of in seperate offices behind emails.

"Seeing what we're hearing" was the issue last year. We infact didn't see what we were hearing. We heard agressive music, but saw flowy drill. This was the point I was trying to make in the first place, too much contrast. It also happened in 2017 as well, but not to such a great extent as last year. Some of 2017 did actually work cohesively, which is more than I can say for 2018. Maybe Sacktig just doesn't do dark very well? Who knows, I just know I'm personally hoping for a better outcome this season. Otherwise I don't know how much longer I can continue to support this design staff.

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