Pioneer What Next?

[Tim K]

I think there are two issues here regarding Pioneer’s “problems” which are not directly related. Yes Pioneer had a poor season competitively, their worst in many years, and corps that have many high school age students, and one with kids as young as 13, scored higher. That’s a design issue, and as others have already mentioned, WC is about touring and finances more than quality of shows. Also, in general, people don’t mind Pioneer. There are some who get upset that Pioneer appears in shows with top competitors, but the majority of ticket holders do not follow drum corps as closely as most on DCP do, and don’t feel cheated by Pioneer  appearing in a show.

The more serious issues facing the corps that have surfaced this year: supervision, management, and staff treatment of marching members, these are the problems that many feel need to be addressed. Did these issues impact morale? Perhaps, but Pioneerr usually finishes with a prelims score between 67-68 which if they had scored in this range still put them below at least two of the high school heavy OC corps as well as WC high school heavy Jersey Surf and Cascades. 

It seems to me that Pioneer has good intentions, but is also over it’s head. We will soon see two frequent questions asked on DCP:  I want a good first time experience for my son/daughter in a WC corps, if we choose a non finalist corps, chances are the answer will be Surf. Pioneer probably thinks that they fit this bill. If a similar question was asked about identity and we look to a non finalist, we may look higher up the ladder and Troopers might be a first choice. Pioneer believes it’s the Irish corps. Pioneer wants to be like its competitors, but Pioneer needs to make it happen which requires the director to do some delegating, not always easy to do, better supervision of young people needs to happen, and staff needs to be taught how to teach. Some have mentioned a better board, this could make it happen. Financials? Donors are more likely to give to a solid organization. You can’t get the donors if the house is not in order.

[Old Corps Guy]

16 minutes ago, Tim K said:

I think there are two issues here regarding Pioneer’s “problems” which are not directly related. Yes Pioneer had a poor season competitively, their worst in many years, and corps that have many high school age students, and one with kids as young as 13, scored higher. That’s a design issue, and as others have already mentioned, WC is about touring and finances more than quality of shows. Also, in general, people don’t mind Pioneer. There are some who get upset that Pioneer appears in shows with top competitors, but the majority of ticket holders do not follow drum corps as closely as most on DCP do, and don’t feel cheated by Pioneer  appearing in a show.

The more serious issues facing the corps that have surfaced this year: supervision, management, and staff treatment of marching members, these are the problems that many feel need to be addressed. Did these issues impact morale? Perhaps, but Pioneerr usually finishes with a prelims score between 67-68 which if they had scored in this range still put them below at least two of the high school heavy OC corps as well as WC high school heavy Jersey Surf and Cascades. 

It seems to me that Pioneer has good intentions, but is also over it’s head. We will soon see two frequent questions asked on DCP:  I want a good first time experience for my son/daughter in a WC corps, if we choose a non finalist corps, chances are the answer will be Surf. Pioneer probably thinks that they fit this bill. If a similar question was asked about identity and we look to a non finalist, we may look higher up the ladder and Troopers might be a first choice. Pioneer believes it’s the Irish corps. Pioneer wants to be like its competitors, but Pioneer needs to make it happen which requires the director to do some delegating, not always easy to do, better supervision of young people needs to happen, and staff needs to be taught how to teach. Some have mentioned a better board, this could make it happen. Financials? Donors are more likely to give to a solid organization. You can’t get the donors if the house is not in order.

I understand that you are a longtime veteran of DCP.  I am concerned that your comments here are an "opinion" that has been stated almost every year.  Pioneer does their thing, and for the most part, do it well.  They give young marchers an opportunity to tour with the big guys of WC.  It is about getting better every day.  It is the Pioneer way.  While I may agree that Roman is wearing too many hats, he is still giving students from the Midwest, as well as many foreign students, a great opportunity to participate in the marching arts activity.  Some students decide they love the Pioneer way and age out every single year.

If there are issues with treatment by the staff, that should be addressed.  However, I have seen no documentation of such issues.  I have seen comments here on DCP insinuating such, but no true documentation.  The corps staff work hard to ensure the students get the best opportunity they can considering many just don't have the skill package of the top tier corps.

I have had the privilege of marching with Pioneer BITD, as well as going on to DCI and DCA finalist corps.  While Roman and I didn't get along, I still valued the opportunity I had to start competitive marching with Pioneer.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Old Corps Guy

[Tim K]

11 minutes ago, CrownBariDad said:

Several of us on this thread have indicated we are not aware of the problems to which you refer. Can you please add some details or a link to a news article?  Thx!

Finances, recruitment, and design are problems Pioneer has faced for years, but I think the problems many are referring to are things that surfaced this summer. A mother published a letter on either Facebook or Reddit asking whether it was standard procedure for a corps to leave a minor alone at a hospital when emergency treatment was required. Many believed Pioneer was the corps involved. If the young person did not march with Pioneer, it was discovered that a similar situation happened at Pioneer. Marching members from Pioneer also posted on social media complaints about staff bullying but the complaints were ignored. I can’t refer you to actual links, but that’s my understanding.

interestingly in Allentown and Indy, where stories fly all over the place, I heard very little chatter, and next to nothing about Pioneer except the words “Poor Pioneer” after their performance.

[JimF-LowBari]

I bumped the hazing/misconduct thread which had some discussion. There are some links to Reddit which had most of the info I was thinking of. Problem is my cheap tablet won't link here.  

My op was referring to the allegations that Pioneer let sick member at hospital by himself, members being verbally abused by staff, bad food, head of corps telling members that corps will handle it's own problems (Don't report to DCI), etc plus way head of corps runs everything without anyone to say no. Repeating allegations

With DCI now taking steps to protect people from sexual abuse then they should also be serious about other things that would affect safety.

Edited August 13, 2018 by JimF-LowBari

[copyright]

I also agree with Old Corps guy on all accounts.

There is some room for improvement which could certainly be solved by consistent tour and program staff with the corps all summer (and Roman agrees with this). The major barrier is finances. I was pleased to see a greater number of staff with the corps this summer. Additionally, many of them were pio alums which I believe increased moral and pride amongst the members plus made alumni feel more engaged throughout the season.

What many people don't realize is how many brass members don't play the instrument they marched this summer - back in the day there were snaritones but this year there were many woodwind players that were making it happen on brass instruments. 

 

[MikeN]

Unpack front end issues from back end issues.  The off-field stuff needs addressing immediately, and DCI is fully within its rights to insist that certain policies be in place before sanctioning them for summer competitions.  Member health and safety should come before all. 

The on field stuff... I don't know.  Pio would have placed in the back half of Open Class had they competed, and I don't know how you fix that quickly without a major sea change. 

Mike

[JAZZER]

27 minutes ago, Old Corps Guy said:

I understand that you are a longtime veteran of DCP.  I am concerned that your comments here are an "opinion" that has been stated almost every year.  Pioneer does their thing, and for the most part, do it well.  They give young marchers an opportunity to tour with the big guys of WC.  It is about getting better every day.  It is the Pioneer way.  While I may agree that Roman is wearing too many hats, he is still giving students from the Midwest, as well as many foreign students, a great opportunity to participate in the marching arts activity.  Some students decide they love the Pioneer way and age out every single year.

If there are issues with treatment by the staff, that should be addressed.  However, I have seen no documentation of such issues.  I have seen comments here on DCP insinuating such, but no true documentation.  The corps staff work hard to ensure the students get the best opportunity they can considering many just don't have the skill package of the top tier corps.

I have had the privilege of marching with Pioneer BITD, as well as going on to DCI and DCA finalist corps.  While Roman and I didn't get along, I still valued the opportunity I had to start competitive marching with Pioneer.

Any idea how many age outs from PIO this year?

Last year a thread was here that compiled # of age outs for each corps. Might have been @BRASSO, he's good at digging into that type of info. 

In reading this thread [& previously the one regarding hazing/bullying], I wonder if many interested rookie mm's from the dairy state may now prefer looking to Shadow for their first DCI experience? 

[cixelsyd]

2 hours ago, jwillis35 said:

I think it really comes down to financials.

To be more precise, financials and logistics.  In addition to funding, the corps must have enough people and sufficient infrastructure to ensure that the corps members are properly cared for.

[cixelsyd]

14 hours ago, OldDCGuy said:

DCI needs a rule passed that World Class membership must be earned/retained by a top 25 finish at least every three years or so.  Something to drive them to keep the quality up.

Quality of world class corps is not a problem.  Why punish them because quality of open class is improving?

[ShortAndFast]

I think it's a mistake to WC/OC to placement. It's primarily a difference in the financial commitment each organization makes.

The issues with Pio are mainly about how much oversight DCI can and should enforce on the member corps.

- Is there a requirement for each corps to provide audited/reviewed financials annually, rather than 1 time when applying for WC status?

- Is there a requirement for each corps to have a BoD independent of corps management?

- Are there standards of performer care and treatment that all corps are obligated to meet? 

- Are there other financial milestones that corps must hit (so many weeks/months of reserve funds, for example) before beginning the annual tour?

Various events are pushing DCI to play a bigger role than it has done in the past. But how many of these items do you think you could get a majority of member corps to vote for?