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SCV's show was an epic musical fail.


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3 hours ago, SWriverstone said:

Sorry ouooga—let's see how the activity is doing in 10 or 20 years. Then tell me if SCV 2018 is marketable. And anytime you'd like to convene a focus group of people on the street and ask them to compare SCV's music to the examples i posted above, I'd be happy to do it with you if we can find funding to do it. Because I'm 100% certain the average person on the street would NOT find this music satisfying to listen to. Sure, they might be impressed with the visuals...but not the music.

Scott

Well sir some things never change. I was demeaned by my HS music teacher 50 years ago. Was told that drum corps kids were nothing more than uneducated street kids. We were not getting a musical education in drum corps and need to quit to take any of his classes. That is what this thread reminds me of and I am thrilled to see not much has changed in your profession in all that time. However now you want to pick on the fans as well, go for it, were always ready.

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14 minutes ago, Bluzes said:

focus group of people on the street

They will certainty like it. A focus group gets paid to watch SCV what a gig. Think they will say they don't like it? In your one-track mind that my be apples to apples. Been to finals lately us fools fork out over 3 bills to attend. Lets us know when I may even shill for you and say I don't like it.

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On 8/14/2018 at 8:42 AM, SWriverstone said:

I've spent countless hours of my life studying, listening to, and performing music of all kinds. I have a BM degree from Juilliard—which doesn't make me more knowledgeable than anyone else—it simply certifies that I'm very knowledgeable about music—and what distinguishes good music from bad music. Contrary to popular belief, music isn't "in the ear of the beholder." It's entirely possible to judge it objectively and even place it (roughly) on a universal scale from bad to good. (If you're someone who believes the quality of music is entirely subjective, you're a hypocrite—because you logically must say the same about everything in life—which I'm sure you don't.)

So on to SCV's show: I've watched it several times. Not dozens or hundreds of times—because remember the mere-exposure effect? I'm not going to destroy my judgement by watching it every day for the entire summer (like the corps members and staff do). The first criterion for great music is that—on the first listen—it moves you. If it doesn't, then it could easily be argued the music has failed. Some might argue that it's not just the music in drum corps that should move you, but the collective experience of music, drill, and choreography. Fair enough. But nobody would argue that the music has a far greater impact on a show's general effect than either drill or choreography. And drill and choreography don't even come close to having the emotional impact of music.

I am also a big music lover, and have studied music, and listen to it daily. Classical is the big love of my life. While it is possible to judge music objectively (the DCI judges do that) that has no bearing on whether music is good or not, or effective or not. That is entirely personal to the average person. Music is a personal thing, and each individual responds to music differently. I cannot listen to the first movement of Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 14 or the second movement of his 5th Piano Concerto without weeping. I've been trying to figure out why for years, and I cannot. I wept the first time I heard these pieces and I still do. I can't explain it. I also don't think a person has lived until they listened to Mozart's Le nozze di Figaro or Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 5, for example, but I know far more people who listen to Taylor Swift or Nikki Minaj than Mozart or Beethoven. I, do not. That doesn't mean there aren't any merits in the music of Swift or Minaj - it's just personal taste. It's personal response to music.

Just because Vanguard's music didn't move you, or Swift and Minaj's music doesn't move me, doesn't mean the music hasn't moved others. That's a very personal thing as well. Vanguard's ballad totally moved me, Bluecoats ballad didn't. Doesn't mean Vanguard's ballad is better or more effective - person that was so to me, but it probably wasn't so to many others.

At the end of the day, music is very personal, and how a person responds to it is very personal.

Vanguard had the absolutely best show of the season in my opinion - on all levels. I felt the same about BD last year. Bluecoats in 2016. Crown in 2015. Personal perference. To each their own.

 

 

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"Excuse me sir, do you have a moment to watch this marching music show and give me your opinion?"

[guy brusquely walks by grumbling about weird cult groups and their recruitment on the street]

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4 hours ago, MikeN said:

It's not going to be more.  Broadcasting on ESPN didn't work.  General audiences are never going to care about high-level marching bands playing popular tunes from current culture.  It's right down there with rhythmic gymnastics and cheerleading championships. 

DCI has found success, both in money and in slow build of viewers, by adopting the current model and slotting themselves right into the existing band and guard universes.  On one hand, no, we're not going to see 40,000 people in Montreal again.  On the other hand, they've also protected themselves a bit by tying the activity to music education, which can weather cultural fickleness.

Mike

 Exactly. Drum Corps show appeal has never been directed to general audiences. The largest demographic at Championships before DCI's formation were military veterans/ families, with a mix of Drum Corps marchers family and friends mixed in as the 2nd largest demographic that were there at the Championships ( American Legion and Veterans of Foreign Wars ). Today, DCI target market are H.S./ College Marching Band students, and it is this audience that pays to march, and is watching the shows by similar demographics. Its mixed in with the older hard core Drum Corps fans that still remain and follow the activity/ shows. Few are " general audience " level folks however. Same as it ever was.. Most in attendance at shows now have either some prior experience as marchers in MB or Drum Corps, or are the young that hope to march some day. The others are mostly family and friends brought to the shows as a result of family connections to the participants, ie are mothers/ fathers/ current boyfriends or girlfriends of current participants or staff and the like. This has not changed much in the last 35 years, and I expect it won't in the future either. So the OP's comment that DCI Drum Corps does not, will not appeal to " general audience " is only commenting on the obvious, imo.. Its never been DCI's intention to appeal to the taste of the " general public " in the first place . There is nothing new under the sun here with that however in Drum Corps. Drum Corps has never been " general audience " appeal throughout its long and distinquished history as a niche activity with a defined appeal to a narrowly defined market demographic.. 

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45 minutes ago, Bluzes said:

Because I'm 100% certain the average person on the street

Lets see about that. I loose count of the world population past America which is about 300 million. Dci draws MMs & fans from all over the world so the world's population is a trillion or so.

And you come up with this man in street theory? Not everyone likes baseball or football how do they rate on the street? What is you point._Put everyone, everyone involved in dci what is that 300k vs trillions. Have you figured out the cross point when this scale reaches a percentage of the worlds population that dislikes SCV, that pushes dci over the cliff and causes a collapse? Should I try and get my money back on next years tickets?

Edited by Bluzes
typo
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7 minutes ago, BRASSO said:

 Exactly. Drum Corps show appeal has never been directed to general audiences. The largest demographic at Championships before DCI were military veterans/ families, with a mix of Drum Corps marchers family and friends mixed in as the 2nd largest demographic that were there at the Championships ( American Legion and Veterans of Foreign Wars ). Today, DCI target market are H.S./ College Marching Band students, and it is this audience that pays to march, and is watching the shows by similar demographics. Its mixed in with the older hard corps fans that still remain and follow the activity/ shows. Few are " general audience " level folks however. Same as it ever was.. Most in attendance at shows now have either some prior experience as marchers in MB or Drum Corps, or are the young that hope to march some day. The others are family and friends broght to the shows as a result of family connections to the participants, ie are mothers/ fathers/ current boyfriends or girlfriends of current participants and the like. This has not changed much in the last 35 years, and I expect it won't in the future either. So the OP's comment that DCI Drum Corps does not, will not appeal to " general audience " is only commenting on the obvious, imo.. Its never been DCI's attempt to appeal to the taste of the " general public ". This is nothing new under the sun here with that however in Drum Corps. Drum Corps has never been " general audience " appeal throughout its history. 

'Everyone' should not be DCI's target audience, agreed. But the audience I that's constantly forgotten is the former fan.

Assume right now there's three sets of audience members:

1) People currently involved in marching band in some way/shape/form

2) FMMs

3) Family/friends of CMMs

2 is us, and we're pretty die-hard fans. 3 is probably difficult to retain once people age out, though the ones who enjoy it to enjoy it might stay. But 1 is the one that's forgotten.

It's easy to sell more traditional drum corps shows to people who are involved in marching band. High school/college students are playing that kind of music, and it resonates with them. But it seems the current marketing model just assumes that, as those people lose interest in marching band as a whole as they grow up, new people will fill in to take their place. Those people just have different tastes as they get older.

But some importance on developing a more accessible version of the activity, not necessarily in all corps but definitely in some, would be the way to retain those individuals. It's not like they stopped listening to music entirely, they're just not immersed in scholarly band anymore.

For one third of the audience (I'm estimating those are three equal buckets, not sure if they really are), drum corps' goal from a marketing standpoint is to attract new people rather than retain. Marketing 101 teaches us that that's a much more difficult model to sustain.

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43 minutes ago, ouooga said:

'Everyone' should not be DCI's target audience, agreed. But the audience I that's constantly forgotten is the former fan.

 

 True, but I'll only point out that each generation of Drum Corps loses a significant, sizable numbers from the generation that went before. I suspect that this will continue. I would imagine that a significant numbers of the young that follow  and prefer todays style of " Drum Corps " will leave when it changes once more... for example when it adds the rest of the conventional MB instruments, ie the woodwinds, clarinets, what have you. The notion that the young fans of todays style of Drum Corps will be following the new and improved version in another 10-15 is dubious at best. I highly doubt it. Most of them will walk away then too... to replaced by a new and younger generation that will love the woodwinds in Drum Corps, or whatever new incarnatiion develops in the next 10-15 years. So the current young fans of todays Drum Corps that prefer todays style, certainly must know that the next generation of fans is not going to prefer the current 2018 model. Will there be any remaining vestiges of single gender Drum Corps in 10-15 years ?  I don't think so, 'really doubt it. Change takes place in Drum Corps, no doubt, but with that change comes many former fans going out the exits, and other newer, younger fans coming in the entrance. Same as it ever was. What evidence is there that this 60 year trend of massive transformative changes in the Drum Corps genre  will somehow slow down, abate, or reverse course ? None, as far as I can envision at the moment. And with that, fans coming and going will likely continue uninterrupted in the activity long into the future as well, imo.

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On 8/14/2018 at 10:42 AM, SWriverstone said:

There's a well-known and studied psychological phenomenon called the mere-exposure effect (also called the familiarity principle). It means people develop a preference for things merely because they are familiar with them. Put more simply, if you listen to lousy music long enough, you'll start thinking it's good. (This isn't opinion—it's fact.) 

It's clear that DCI audiences are suffering from this effect in a big way. Witness what DCI judges considered the pinnacle of shows in 2018 by awarding it a championship (SCV). Now I get that drum corps is more than just music—it's "art" (though I could make a case for why it really isn't, even at the highest levels). Drill, choreography, difficulty, etc. are all part of the activity. But the emotional underpinnings of any show are the music. You aren't going to be swept to emotional highs by a single high rifle toss or a big two-handed rimshot. The music matters—a lot. 

I've spent countless hours of my life studying, listening to, and performing music of all kinds. I have a BM degree from Juilliard—which doesn't make me more knowledgeable than anyone else—it simply certifies that I'm very knowledgeable about music—and what distinguishes good music from bad music. Contrary to popular belief, music isn't "in the ear of the beholder." It's entirely possible to judge it objectively and even place it (roughly) on a universal scale from bad to good. (If you're someone who believes the quality of music is entirely subjective, you're a hypocrite—because you logically must say the same about everything in life—which I'm sure you don't.)

So on to SCV's show: I've watched it several times. Not dozens or hundreds of times—because remember the mere-exposure effect? I'm not going to destroy my judgement by watching it every day for the entire summer (like the corps members and staff do). The first criterion for great music is that—on the first listen—it moves you. If it doesn't, then it could easily be argued the music has failed. Some might argue that it's not just the music in drum corps that should move you, but the collective experience of music, drill, and choreography. Fair enough. But nobody would argue that the music has a far greater impact on a show's general effect than either drill or choreography. And drill and choreography don't even come close to having the emotional impact of music.

I watched SCV's show with an open heart and mind. I love SCV! I always have. And I give every show the benefit of the doubt because I want to be moved emotionally. When I watch a drum corps show, I want to have tears in my eyes. I don't give a flip about how cleanly a difficult move is executed. It's interesting, but that will never move me to tears. (That's a bit like trying to be moved to tears by a brilliantly-designed coffeepot—it ain't gonna happen.) While watching (and listening) to SCV's show, I paid attention. I focused on the melody (or absence of it), the harmonies, the transitions, the tempo changes—I sat back and let it wash over me without judgement.

It left me cold and feeling completely flat.

After hearing it the first time, I thought "Okay, I'm just not familiar with it." (There's that principle again!) So I watched/listened again. And again. And in what is a testament to the absolute sterility of the show's music, familiarity didn't help at all. Every time I listened to SCV's show, it was just as pointless and unemotional as the previous listening. Here's what I noticed, repeatedly:

There were no discernable, memorable melodies in the show—and by melodies, I mean a sustained melodic line lasting at least 8 bars (at the same tempo) that very clearly moves from point A to point B in an emotional arc. (Think of just about any Beatles song, any Rodgers & Hammerstein musical, or any Beethoven symphony.) Even after repeated views, I couldn't sing along with 2 bars of this show (and I have a good ear for remembering melodies).

There was no sense of a grounded tempo anywhere in the show—by this, I mean a chance to get into a groove—to feel the pulse of the music and actually have a chance to tap your foot or rock gently along with it. Tempo changes were so frequent they suggested a kind of musical schizophrenia—arrangements driven entirely by the drill and perceived difficulty.

NOTE: Even some of the most brilliant, avante-garde compositions in music history hold to a steady tempo for at least 16-32 bars—I'm thinking of pieces like Stravinsky's Le Sacre du Printemps or Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra orJohn Cage's Third Construction.

There was no overall sense of continuity—no feeling of going on a journey from the beginning of the show to the logical conclusion. Despite the flowery descriptions creative staff come up with to justify their shows, SCV's show was quite literally like a long series of 1- or 2-second cuts in a video, each one jarring, seemingly designed to be as abrupt as possible.

This was, plain and simple, an epic musical fail. (And therefore, a fail of a show—in spite of winning.)

Some of you reading this will think I just don't get it. Okay—I'll humor you: I get cubist paintings. I get architecture by Frank Lloyd Wright. And I get music by Steve Reich, Igor Stravinsky, Vincent Persichetti, John Cage, and countless other "challenging" composers. I have a very sophisticated musical ear. My favorite composer is Charles Ives—I've listened to his Concord Sonata hundreds of times—and every time I hear something I didn't hear before. (And trust me—Ives' Concord Sonata is light years ahead of any DCI show in sophistication.)

Some of you will think I'm just an old fart who doesn't understand current music. At this I just shake my head and laugh: have you noticed that people still love The Beatles, Beethoven, Mississippi John Hurt, and Joni Mitchell? This music isn't any less relevant and popular today than it was 25 or 100 years ago.

When it comes to music, you can't get rid of the fundamental elements that make music great without destroying it:

1. It moves you emotionally on the FIRST listen.
2. It is memorable—you can actually hum or sing some of it after one hearing—and ALL of it after several hearings.
3. It has a steady, consistent pulse that you can slip into and feel—in a sustained way—while you listen.

SCV's show had NONE of these qualities on the first hearing (or second, third, or fourth). which is why I call it an epic fail.

What disturbs me even more than SCV performing this show (who has a long history of connecting emotionally with audiences through great music) is the fact that DCI judges apparently reward this "music" that is devoid of any characteristics of good music. Yes, I know—they're judging more than the music (I already acknowledged this), but the judging community has lost its way. Clearly judges are more focused on difficulty (in the form of chaotic, disjointed shows packed with tempo changes and 32nd-note runs) than they are on emotionally connecting with audiences.

---
In many ways, I guess we've gotten what we deserve. It's widely acknowledged that young people today have an average attention span of seconds. Maybe show designers are catering to this? Maybe we—as an American species—have lost the ability to focus on something more than 10 seconds without needing an abrupt change? Listen to pop music today and it's clear that it exists on a level far lower in intelligence than it ever has in the past (just look at all the hit songs about nothing more than partying). Even the Academy Awards have officially decided movie audiences are dumb–they've created a new Oscar for "Best Popular Film."  (Because a popular film can't be intelligent or have depth.)

If anyone out there disagrees with my premise that SCV's show was a musical fail (and I'm sure hundreds or thousands do), feel free to explain (hopefully in more than single-syllable words) why you think it was great. Tell me how this show moved you emotionally. And as proof, record yourself singing some part of SCV's show and post the MP3 here. :-) (Corps members and staff who performed/arranged the show aren't allowed–your impartial judgement is long gone).

Scott

the epic failure is the fact that you have time to write this epistle, that doesn't amount to much other than you don't like something. 

Edited by EricS
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