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Pioneer Suspended by DCI


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8 minutes ago, xandandl said:

which may explain some of those scores over the years.

A moment in memory of those members of the Des Plaines Vanguard who lost their lives when a plane hit the hangar the corps was using for practice outside Chicago in the early 70's. The corps was never the same or really very competitively successful after that.

OMG!  The odds!

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1 hour ago, xandandl said:

which may explain some of those scores over the years.

A moment in memory of those members of the Des Plaines Vanguard who lost their lives when a plane hit the hangar the corps was using for practice outside Chicago in the early 70's. The corps was never the same or really very competitively successful after that.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Central_Airlines_Flight_458

John Gruber / wrong Vanguard tragedy.  They had several. 

Edited by Terri Schehr
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56 minutes ago, garfield said:

If you know that IRC4946 deals with interaction and transaction between donors and private foundations, and you admit that Pio does not classify as a private foundation, then your contention that your "other-issue" research is relevant is flawed, and your arguments are vacuous.

No pee-ing contest necessary, but facts are mandatory.  The fact is that you're citing unrelated code to support a position you could have cut and pasted in 10 minutes, and your position - that Roman is somehow a "disqualified person" to deal with Pio's assets - is baseless.  

OK, so Pio owns the assets.  If Pio owns the assets, Roman can't "take them and go home".  Got it.  That's one possibility not disproven or supported by your data from the 990.  I was supporting the possibility that, if the assets are titled in Roman's name (for some crazy reason, maybe!) he's been "giving" their use to Pio as a charitable contribution each year, and he can stop doing so at any time.  If he bought the busses and they are in his name, he can, in fact take those toys and drive them home to his front yard.  That's all.  No pee-ing contest meant.

But I think that, at base, we're speculating about the titling of Pio's assets and what can be reasonably expected to be passed along should some other group surface to rescue the org.

 

 

I was fine until I got to vacuous - then I just got annoyed.  I gave too long of a response to "Roman owns everything" and responded with what was already at my fingertips - so sorry.  I can't use work short-hand here (work would have understood that the same basic concept applies to both entities).

Lets just go to the basics - 990 Form instructions.  Page 4, item 25a  of Form 990 asks "Did the organization engage in an excess benefit transaction with a disqualified person during the year?" 

 https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i990.pdf

See page 85 for the definition of a disqualified person and excess benefit transaction for a public charity. 

 A disqualified person, regarding any transaction, is any person who was in a position to exercise substantial influence over the affairs of the applicable tax-exempt organization at any time during a 5-year period ending on the date of the transaction. Persons who hold certain powers, responsibilities, or interests are among those who are in a position to exercise substantial influence over the affairs of the organization. This would include, for example, voting members of the governing body, and persons holding the power of:

Presidents, chief executive officers, or chief operating officers.

Treasurers and chief financial officers.

A disqualified person also includes certain family members of a disqualified person, and 35% controlled entities of a disqualified person.

Page 85 also explains Excess Benefit Transactions which must be at fair market value - he cannot buy a $100 piece of equipment for $10 without it being deemed that he received an excess benefit subject to excise taxes.  Now if I were on Roman's side I would say that I put in the $90 difference in time so it is a fair exchange.  Someone can make an argument either way based on the underlying facts and circumstances.

To determine whether an excess benefit transaction has occurred, all consideration and benefits exchanged between a disqualified person and the applicable tax-exempt organization, and all entities it controls, are taken into account. 

For purposes of determining the value of economic benefits, the value of property, including the right to use property, is the fair market value (FMV). Fair market value is the price at which property, or the right to use property, would change hands between a willing buyer and a willing seller, neither being under any compulsion to buy, sell or transfer property or the right to use property, and both having reasonable knowledge of relevant facts.

My main purpose was to convey that Roman does not own items titled to Pioneer.  If he sells items titled to Pioneer he cannot just keep the cash himself, unless it is a repayment to him of funds he loaned to Pioneer or he pays it to himself (or others) as compensation.  If he folds Pioneer, he cannot take equipment titled to Pioneer without paying fair market value as defined by the IRC as he is a disqualified person.

I'm done on this topic.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, WIS said:

I was fine until I got to vacuous - then I just got annoyed.  

I'm done on this topic.

 

 

Definition of vacuous

1: emptied of or lacking content.  

That's all I meant.  "Based on empty content" because your data related to private foundations.

I apologize if another definition seemed apt.

Don't be annoyed. We're both searching the same answers.

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1 hour ago, Terri Schehr said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Central_Airlines_Flight_458

John Gruber / wrong Vanguard tragedy.  They had several. 

I know your Guardsmen of Schaumburg, Ill. history, but I am confused by your answer. I have two sources for what I wrote beyond my own memory of the national reporting of that story back in NY. Please be more specific in your answer, thank you. Same or different corps?

Your own article linked above says this:  

Casualties[edit]

Three crew members – the captain, the first officer, and a flight attendant – and 24 passengers died in the crash. One crew member (a flight attendant) and 17 passengers survived, all with injuries. Several airline employees as well as members of a boys' drum and bugle corps group were on the ground in the vicinity of the hangar or in the hangar bay at the time of the crash; none of the airline employees were harmed, but seven of the boys were injured, and one of them died nine days later.[7]

And from Google group discussions:

 

 

"In 1967 and 1968, The Vanguards (many of which were friends) from Skokie were practicing in an
aircraft hanger at OHare Airport in Chicago when a Commercial Airliner crashed
into the Hanger. I think 2 died in this accident not to mention everyone on the
plane. Shortly after the season started, the Vangaurd were rehearsing drill
prior to the Cavies show in Desplaines Illinois when Lightning struck the Corps
killing 2 more and shortly after that the corps lost 1 or 2 gals from the gaurd
to a hit and run driver as they were walking out in front of Vangaurd hall near
Ohare Airport.  They died and several of the guys in the Corps caught the
driver. He did not like the outcome of his mistake either. It was a very bad 2
years for the Vanguard.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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57 minutes ago, WIS said:

My main purpose was to convey that Roman does not own items titled to Pioneer.  If he sells items titled to Pioneer he cannot just keep the cash himself, unless it is a repayment to him of funds he loaned to Pioneer or he pays it to himself (or others) as compensation.  If he folds Pioneer, he cannot take equipment titled to Pioneer without paying fair market value as defined by the IRC as he is a disqualified person.

 

Well, maybe this is not as self-evident as it appears.

Taking items titled in some person's, or some other entity's, name, it would be called theft, and it doesn't matter what IRC says.

If he and his Board discuss "granting" any assets titled in Pio's name to Roman or any other "disqualified person", if they qualify as "excess benefit" assets, there would be a 25% surtax due on the market value of these items charged to the recipient.

All of that is true.

And, if the assets under discussion are titled in Roman's name, he can most-certainly take those assets with concern of triggering an "excess benefit".

So, we're still discussing how the assets are titled at Pio, right?  

 

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33 minutes ago, xandandl said:

I know your Guardsmen of Schaumburg, Ill. history, but I am confused by your answer. I have two sources for what I wrote beyond my own memory of the national reporting of that story back in NY. Please be more specific in your answer, thank you. Same or different corps?

Your own article linked above says this:  

Casualties[edit]

Three crew members – the captain, the first officer, and a flight attendant – and 24 passengers died in the crash. One crew member (a flight attendant) and 17 passengers survived, all with injuries. Several airline employees as well as members of a boys' drum and bugle corps group were on the ground in the vicinity of the hangar or in the hangar bay at the time of the crash; none of the airline employees were harmed, but seven of the boys were injured, and one of them died nine days later.[7]

And from Google group discussions:

 

 

"In 1967 and 1968, The Vanguards (many of which were friends) from Skokie were practicing in an
aircraft hanger at OHare Airport in Chicago when a Commercial Airliner crashed
into the Hanger. I think 2 died in this accident not to mention everyone on the
plane. Shortly after the season started, the Vangaurd were rehearsing drill
prior to the Cavies show in Desplaines Illinois when Lightning struck the Corps
killing 2 more and shortly after that the corps lost 1 or 2 gals from the gaurd
to a hit and run driver as they were walking out in front of Vangaurd hall near
Ohare Airport.  They died and several of the guys in the Corps caught the
driver. He did not like the outcome of his mistake either. It was a very bad 2
years for the Vanguard.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dave Hill, Vanguard member, Vanguard Brass arranger, Buglers Hall of fame member, gave me the link.  

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New caption award:  the Bob Cratchit accountant award. Named in honor of the abused, underpaid, endlessly working clerk of Ebenezer Scrooge. In spite of such challenges, Bob Cratchit would sacrifice everything for the family he loves, the family who adores him. It is in honor of his selflessness in the face of severe adversity that this award, the Gilded Quill, is presented. This year's award is a neck and neck race between WIS and Gar. Stay tuned as the judges tally the scores. 

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10 minutes ago, HockeyDad said:

New caption award:  the Bob Cratchit accountant award. Named in honor of the abused, underpaid, endlessly working clerk of Ebenezer Scrooge. In spite of such challenges, Bob Cratchit would sacrifice everything for the family he loves, the family who adores him. It is in honor of his selflessness in the face of severe adversity that this award, the Gilded Quill, is presented. This year's award is a neck and neck race between WIS and Gar. Stay tuned as the judges tally the scores. 

You win the internet today. 

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