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47 minutes ago, 2muchcoffeeman said:

So, do we also apply this same line of argument to the 6 tuba players in each corps who are being left on the sideline as more and more DCI lines cut back from 16 to12, because of the electronics that now supply the lower end that has been lost by cutting 1/3 of the tubas? There's no competitive "value" in providing learning opportunities to those 6 abandoned players because I can get the same or more tenths of points from one finger pressing a key on a computer. How do those 6 former tuba players become better tuba players during the summer?

 

Soooo, if some corps have cut six tubas, the corps would need 18 tubas to cut 1/3 of them to get to six.  I'm thinking some of these various cuts allow more mm for the guards.  The BD have done OK, even before synths, with around 12 tubas

 

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7 hours ago, 2muchcoffeeman said:

So, do we also apply this same line of argument to the 6 tuba players in each corps who are being left on the sideline as more and more DCI lines cut back from 16 to12, because of the electronics that now supply the lower end that has been lost by cutting 1/3 of the tubas? There's no competitive "value" in providing learning opportunities to those 6 abandoned players because I can get the same or more tenths of points from one finger pressing a key on a computer. How do those 6 former tuba players become better tuba players during the summer?

 

16-6=10

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On 9/15/2018 at 7:02 PM, L1STEN2311 said:

As a Crossmen alum and band director in Texas, I would absolutely do the same thing if put in the position to make the call to cut the cymbal line.  Cymbal lines don't provide any real value for the amount of investment involved for a drum corps show.  The amount of time and effort composing their music, instructing, cleaning, paying a staff... all for something that will receive little to no credit in the grand scheme of the show doesn't make sense.  Don't get me wrong, cymbals have a place in parades, in the stands at football games, and indoor drumline but they're unnecessary in DCI.  

Maybe the problem lies with those who think that a cymbal line requires "a staff", rather than one cymbal specialist (or existing percussion staffers who know cymbals).

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On 9/16/2018 at 1:27 AM, L1STEN2311 said:

Please elaborate on the educational value of playing in a cymbal line vs any other position in an ensemble.  

if education is your concern, why not field flub lines instead.  My main reason for not having cymbals in my program is that I don’t want my students not drumming for 5 months.  They’ll be better prepared for concert season (or the next marching season) playing a keyboard instrument or a flub drum vs cymbals.

I guess no one in your local music program marches colorguard in the fall.

Quote

I was told in high school that marching drum corps was a waste of time and that I “would never make a dime playing a drum on a football field”. Marching drum corps changed my life for the better and it’s an experience I wish for anyone who wants to achieve it.  But from the administrative side, I understand the cost vs. value of cymbals. It’s always hard to take away an opportunity for students to perform, but those 4/5 spots will go to other students who will now get to march.  

Okay, then, what about cost vs. value?  A cymbal line, even with its own tech, is more economical than most other positions in the corps.  Other sections still have their own techs, and their instruments are more expensive.  This is especially true of the front ensemble, where we now have multiple instruments per performer, plus additional A&E equipment, additional staff for A&E design and running the sound board, and a truck to carry it all with associated costs for fuel and another qualified driver.  (And do not even start me on the cost/value of props.)

But it is not about educational value, or even entertainment value.  It is about what the judging system values.  Apparently, judges value "intellectual effect" and "3-dimensional design" so much that corps are adding yet another truck to the fleet just to transport all the associated props on tour.  If the DCI judging system valued cymbal lines, every corps would have one.

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2 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

I

But it is not about educational value, or even entertainment value.  It is about what the judging system values.  Apparently, judges value "intellectual effect" and "3-dimensional design" so much that corps are adding yet another truck to the fleet just to transport all the associated props on tour.  If the DCI judging system valued cymbal lines, every corps would have one.

The corps create the judging system. so at the end of the day, what is judged, and how, is based on what the corps want.

 

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I moved a few months back and only unpacked my drum corps DVD’s last week. Over the weekend I did some binge watching. I probably watched about twenty shows spanning the 70’s-90’s, then 2011-2016. 

In the earlier shows, those playing the cymbals were much younger than the snares. I know looks can be deceiving, but I do know at least one northeast corps had a cymbals performer who was 14, I know him and he eventually worked his way up to the snare line. I do understand this was a very different era.

In the 80’s you saw some corps use cymbals, for others the front ensemble had cymbals. In one of the shows in the 90’s cymbals were clashing but the cymbals on the field were at the cymbals players sides.

In more recent years cymbals have been featured by some corps on the field for both musical and visual purposes. 

What has evolved is that corps are either using cymbals on the field or not using them based on what they are trying to present. It’s not new, and you never know, Crossmen could uses cymbals at a later date.

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12 hours ago, Ghost said:

Soooo, if some corps have cut six tubas, the corps would need 18 tubas to cut 1/3 of them to get to six.  I'm thinking some of these various cuts allow more mm for the guards.  The BD have done OK, even before synths, with around 12 tubas

 

Typo, sorry. Errant arithmetic aside, the question remains: Do we consider 4 tuba players expendable if the point is music/performance education? We seem to be advancing that argument wrt cymbals: We're willing to throw them overboard in the name of better percussion instruction (put sticks, not plates, in their hands!). So, are we gonna add spots in the battery or FE to make them better percussionists? Are we creating new opportunities for the tuba players that more corps seem to be cutting loose? For a long time, 16 tubas had been the norm, with exceptions such as BD stipulated. Now, not so much.

The point: I am dubious that the cymbal purge is about improving percussion instruction.

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1 hour ago, 2muchcoffeeman said:

Typo, sorry. Errant arithmetic aside, the question remains: Do we consider 4 tuba players expendable if the point is music/performance education? We seem to be advancing that argument wrt cymbals: We're willing to throw them overboard in the name of better percussion instruction (put sticks, not plates, in their hands!). So, are we gonna add spots in the battery or FE to make them better percussionists? Are we creating new opportunities for the tuba players that more corps seem to be cutting loose? For a long time, 16 tubas had been the norm, with exceptions such as BD stipulated. Now, not so much.

The point: I am dubious that the cymbal purge is about improving percussion instruction.

it's not. 

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38 minutes ago, MikeD said:

The corps create the judging system. so at the end of the day, what is judged, and how, is based on what the corps want.

 

Not that I ever said otherwise.

But since you brought that up, a little clarification would be nice.  It is not "the corps", but really just the designers/instructors (and judges) who develop the judging system, with corps voting representatives having veto power.  The rest of the people who make up "the corps" (most notably, the marching members) have no input.

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32 minutes ago, cixelsyd said:

Not that I ever said otherwise.

But since you brought that up, a little clarification would be nice.  It is not "the corps", but really just the designers/instructors (and judges) who develop the judging system, with corps voting representatives having veto power.  The rest of the people who make up "the corps" (most notably, the marching members) have no input.

 

It is the corps,last checked directors, designers, instructors ARE the corps. why would marching members have an input on judging? There are adults who don't get judging even when it's put right in front of them in writing ( clearly ) and you want kids to have an input when their job is learning...

Edited by GUARDLING
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