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1 minute ago, Tad_MMA said:

 

***RELEASE THE NERD!***

Unless mentioned, BD was rated 1st. Bold is a "repeat offender" for Thurs/Fri only.

YEAR    QF                 SF

'08   R. Solomon   D. Torchia  (In this, the closest of DCI wins, both of these had a 0.2 spread w/ BD/PR. Finals judge had a 0.7 spread.)

'09   J. Howell       R. Solomon

'10    L. Carlson    W. Chumley  (Straight 20s all 3 nights. Wowza!)

'11   G. Oliviero     R. Solomon

'12   R. Solomon   M. Lentz

'13   G. Oliviero     D. Torchia

'14   L. Carlson      M. Turner

'15   M. Turner       G. Oliviero  (Turner had BD in 2nd by 0.2)

'16   M. Lentz         M. Thompson  (QF: BD 0.3 under CC; SF: BD 0.2 under CC and 0.1 under Bloo; Finals: BD wins by 0.3; CC wins Zingali)

'17   H. Nguyen      R. Solomon  (QF: BD 0.15 under SCV; SF: BD 0.2 under SCV; Finals: BD 0.3 win. SCV wins Zingali)

'18   C. Raichle       W. Chumley (SF: 0.3 under BAC for 4th place guard [lowest since '07 SF 6th place]; BAC wins Zingali)

To make it easier to compare, here are the Finals judges again:

'08: R. Solomon (19.9)

'09: L. Carlson (20)

'10: R. Solomon (20)

'11: M. Turner (19.8)

'12: L. Carlson (20)

'13: L. Carlson (19.9)

'14: R. Solomon (20)

'15: M. Czapinski (19.7)

'16: W. Chumley (19.9)

'17: C. Raichle (19.6)

'18: M. Turner (19.60)

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9 hours ago, GUARDLING said:

 Remember the hidden 🤐 recaps when they tried that?

yeah lasted one year. well the idea, not the hiding

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2 hours ago, Tad_MMA said:

 

***RELEASE THE NERD!***

Unless mentioned, BD was rated 1st. Bold is a "repeat offender" for Thurs/Fri only.

YEAR    QF                 SF

'08   R. Solomon   D. Torchia  (In this, the closest of DCI wins, both of these had a 0.2 spread w/ BD/PR. Finals judge had a 0.7 spread.)

'09   J. Howell       R. Solomon

'10    L. Carlson    W. Chumley  (Straight 20s all 3 nights. Wowza!)

'11   G. Oliviero     R. Solomon

'12   R. Solomon   M. Lentz

'13   G. Oliviero     D. Torchia

'14   L. Carlson      M. Turner

'15   M. Turner       G. Oliviero  (Turner had BD in 2nd by 0.2)

'16   M. Lentz         M. Thompson  (QF: BD 0.3 under CC; SF: BD 0.2 under CC and 0.1 under Bloo; Finals: BD wins by 0.3; CC wins Zingali)

'17   H. Nguyen      R. Solomon  (QF: BD 0.15 under SCV; SF: BD 0.2 under SCV; Finals: BD 0.3 win. SCV wins Zingali)

'18   C. Raichle       W. Chumley (SF: 0.3 under BAC for 4th place guard [lowest since '07 SF 6th place]; BAC wins Zingali)

explains a lot.

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1 hour ago, Tad_MMA said:

Not to everyone. Enlighten us!

first off the pool of judges used for finals week is small. While many new faces have been added to the roster, the opportunities to break the glass ceiling has been few. Sure, I'd love to see Jeff and Marty and Allen out there on drums every year for example, but there's a couple of newer folks that arent so bad.

 

So with a small rotating cast of characters, you'll see some trends. I mean it's been discussed on here a zillion times if Chumley is on a show, BD will win. I honestly havent dug deep enough on the others to see if thats said ( and i am not blasting Chumley, I am saying it's been said.....hell look at the Torchia comments over the years LOL)

 

But certain judges will, even with the sheets being more fully fleshed out, will have their preference. Body people will reward  BD more than an equipment heavy background person. in checking out the Drum Corps AF podcast, it was mentioned BD is great in Body, but the equipment work is A class ( referring to WGI). Now I'm not qualified to say that it is, but I dug around a few places online and saw similar statements. Boston was more equipment heavy. So looking over the past results of all 3 days, it seems that, especially when judged from way upstairs, body seems to get BD more love since the equipment isn't getting as much to do, hence making them appear cleaner. I am speculating that based on things I have seen posted here, reddit, that podcast and other chatter around the globe.

 

the circuit i administrate in uses a variation of the DCI sheets, so i went back and looked at out championships results the last few years, and looked at the background of those that judged...I saw a similar result.

 

Even in percussion world, of which I am versed, there's still a perception that a front ensemble person will not give the battery enough credit and a battery guy will not give the front ensemble enough credit. While i think that perception is dying slowly, there are some reasons to think it's still out there for some.

Edited by Jeff Ream
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8 hours ago, Tad_MMA said:

We are; why aren't they? There has to be a certain trust given to judges. Yes, they're human; yes, they have favorites. The two numbers that freaked me out the most must have done the same to the powers that be. I won't mention names, but one judged GE Visual in 1987 finals and the other judged color guard in '03 prelims. Two incredible WT(holy)F moments. The former never judged a major contest again (only DCWest); the latter, I'm not sure.

Last I knew, the judges on SF and Finals were "Semi-sequestered" (IIRC DCI's term for it) in which they weren't allowed to watch the shows nor converse with any of the panel about those contests, nor see the recaps. Has this changed?

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2 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

Even in percussion world, of which I am versed, there's still a perception that a front ensemble person will not give the battery enough credit and a battery guy will not give the front ensemble enough credit. While i think that perception is dying slowly, there are some reasons to think it's still out there for some.

Interesting! One has to try and look at things from as balanced a perspective as possible, no matter how hard it is to do. Everyone does have that tendency to evaluate using their backgrounds as a start, and one has to expand knowledge bases and become more well rounded as time goes on.

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8 hours ago, Tad_MMA said:

We are; why aren't they? There has to be a certain trust given to judges. Yes, they're human; yes, they have favorites. The two numbers that freaked me out the most must have done the same to the powers that be. I won't mention names, but one judged GE Visual in 1987 finals and the other judged color guard in '03 prelims. Two incredible WT(holy)F moments. The former never judged a major contest again (only DCWest); the latter, I'm not sure.

 

See earlier comment regarding the "Semi-Sequestered" panels for some of my response.

Yes, but within this thread I see a kind of dichotomy taking place. Can't trust some people...more judges to eliminate perceived bias... I'm uncertain there is no perfect or solid solution. Jeff brings up the point, and others have, of the rather small pool of individuals at this level getting in to judge at the top end. And there, we also have a dichotomy of comments here. Same people, we all know their proclivities same old same old decisions rendered...... but when new people get added to the mix, goodness, who are they!?

 

Seems many of us want to have our cake... and eat it as well. New blood? Absolutely! But "...can people trust them"!? I'd hope so! They don't dig people out of the corner of some empty shoebox to judge at this level.

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9 minutes ago, BigW said:

Interesting! One has to try and look at things from as balanced a perspective as possible, no matter how hard it is to do. Everyone does have that tendency to evaluate using their backgrounds as a start, and one has to expand knowledge bases and become more well rounded as time goes on.

in the old days, the mentality was snares, then tenors, then bass, then pit, then plates. Over the last 30+ years the judges are far more knowledgable in all aspects, but that doesn't prevent myths from continuing to exist. Last winter while judging, as a unit came on the floor i heard a staff member say "Reams here basses don't suck!"

 

and while i sampled the basses ( and was very complimentary), they came in amazed at the commentary I gave about the FE....i actually knew some keyboard! In fact more than that particular tech LOL

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2 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

in the old days, the mentality was snares, then tenors, then bass, then pit, then plates. Over the last 30+ years the judges are far more knowledgable in all aspects, but that doesn't prevent myths from continuing to exist. Last winter while judging, as a unit came on the floor i heard a staff member say "Reams here basses don't suck!"

 

and while i sampled the basses ( and was very complimentary), they came in amazed at the commentary I gave about the FE....i actually knew some keyboard! In fact more than that particular tech LOL

Topic for another thread, I suppose.... but would it be worthwhile to have separate perc. judges for battery and front ensemble?

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