quietcity Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 2 hours ago, George Dixon said: I thought SCV won brass in 87? SCV and Cadets tied for top brass in 87. SCV tied with BD and Cadets in 84. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tad_MMA Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 9 hours ago, Who's on first? said: Are we talking finals night, or the average between all three competitions, like the awards are currently given? When did that format start happening? My list is the official winner/s. From 1972 through 1983, the way brass/perc finished at Finals decided the trophies. From 1984-1987 and 1990-1993, Brass, Perc, Visual were FIELD + ENSEMBLE, and the top total(s) from Finals won. In 1988/89, there were 6 judges: 2 each in Brass ,Perc, Vis (GE & Performance). They added the Finals GE + Performance numbers per caption (yet still had a GE award). Beginning in 1994, they added the 3 performance scores from Thur, Fri, Sat. Ties were ok (now, it's broken by the Finals score). It would be interesting to compile lists (my nerdiest of nerd fun things to do) of 1972-1999 caption winners based on today's averaging standards. For instance, in 1988, Madison won Color Guard in semifinals; Phantom won in Finals (and got the trophy). By today's logarithms, the winner would have been (the most amazing) Suncoast Sound. I'm still waiting for somebody to explain how Star was not announced High Percussion co-winner with SCV and Cavies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 5 hours ago, Tad_MMA said: My list is the official winner/s. From 1972 through 1983, the way brass/perc finished at Finals decided the trophies. From 1984-1987 and 1990-1993, Brass, Perc, Visual were FIELD + ENSEMBLE, and the top total(s) from Finals won. In 1988/89, there were 6 judges: 2 each in Brass ,Perc, Vis (GE & Performance). They added the Finals GE + Performance numbers per caption (yet still had a GE award). Beginning in 1994, they added the 3 performance scores from Thur, Fri, Sat. Ties were ok (now, it's broken by the Finals score). It would be interesting to compile lists (my nerdiest of nerd fun things to do) of 1972-1999 caption winners based on today's averaging standards. For instance, in 1988, Madison won Color Guard in semifinals; Phantom won in Finals (and got the trophy). By today's logarithms, the winner would have been (the most amazing) Suncoast Sound. I'm still waiting for somebody to explain how Star was not announced High Percussion co-winner with SCV and Cavies... I believe GE was why they didn't announce Star. and the average thing needs to go away 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xandandl Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 22 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said: and the average thing needs to go away nope, otherwise (as in color guard under current system) only one judge is deciding who is best. Average is also the opinion of more than one person and limits rigging by bias. Unless of course you have suddenly become a fan of infallibility... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylogan Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 11 minutes ago, xandandl said: nope, otherwise (as in color guard under current system) only one judge is deciding who is best. Average is also the opinion of more than one person and limits rigging by bias. Unless of course you have suddenly become a fan of infallibility... I don’t buy that argument. It’s already a biased judging activity. That’s what judging comes down to at the end of the day. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tad_MMA Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 On 9/21/2018 at 1:20 PM, Jeff Ream said: I believe GE was why they didn't announce Star. No, Star and Cavies tied in Percussion GE at Finals. Had GE Perc been the tiebreaker, SCV would have been the sole winner. They only used GE as part of the caption awards in 1988 and 1989 . However, in 1980, Spirit and Bridgemen co-won Drums, but they used the GE Perc score to break the tie to the Bananas. (I wonder if that was an actual rule. Seriously. Spirit should look into that.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 On 9/21/2018 at 1:44 PM, xandandl said: nope, otherwise (as in color guard under current system) only one judge is deciding who is best. Average is also the opinion of more than one person and limits rigging by bias. Unless of course you have suddenly become a fan of infallibility... with the math as it is....it has to be a HUGE spread to make a difference. both GE's are doubled, so usually one offsets the other in those very rare instances the three visual sheets are added up and divided by 2. that math again usually offsets that issue on the rare chance it happens. And here's the one we have seen at play...the 3/4 music judges. the caption thats doubled, now ensemble, then percussion. Look at the issues with Crown and their percussion in the year they won. Even then with the averages, the percussion spread, which didn't have two judges that year, was still minimized by the math when you add all the music sheets together. https://www.dci.org/scores/recap/2013-dci-world-championship-finals in the old days it would have had a far greater impact. And in todays world, few judges are going to make a HUGE statement that would offset the system and call a show Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabMaster Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 On 9/21/2018 at 2:00 PM, jaylogan said: I don’t buy that argument. It’s already a biased judging activity. That’s what judging comes down to at the end of the day. Yeah maybe it is biased but with averaging it would be harder to get three judges, on separate nights to share the same bias. Averaging at final rewards the best overall performances when a corps peaks. Or is supposed to peak. You could have a guard say win on nights 1 & 2, then by a single biased judge, be scored .05, lower than another guard who they may have beaten by a point each previous night. So they wouldn't be the best guard which is what DCI is trying to determine? I think averaging the scores for captions is OK, for awarding the caption winners. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seen-it-all Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 3 hours ago, LabMaster said: Yeah maybe it is biased but with averaging it would be harder to get three judges, on separate nights to share the same bias. Averaging at final rewards the best overall performances when a corps peaks. Or is supposed to peak. You could have a guard say win on nights 1 & 2, then by a single biased judge, be scored .05, lower than another guard who they may have beaten by a point each previous night. So they wouldn't be the best guard which is what DCI is trying to determine? I think averaging the scores for captions is OK, for awarding the caption winners. Any arrangement that could allow a corps to win a caption award on a night in which they did not actually win that caption is absurd in its very concept. If averaging numbers leads to less bias, then double up the entire panel for Finals night. But for the love of all things holy, stop using numbers from previous performances to determine the winner of caption awards on FINALS NIGHT. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeke Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 (edited) On 9/21/2018 at 4:31 AM, Tad_MMA said: For instance, in 1988, Madison won Color Guard in semifinals; Phantom won in Finals (and got the trophy). By today's logarithms, the winner would have been (the most amazing) Suncoast Sound. Edited September 24, 2018 by Zeke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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