karuna

Field judges restricted to front sideline in 2019

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1 hour ago, GUARDLING said:

Do you actually believe people won't be challenged... That all aside, my response was not about today BUT to a statement made of BITD You have to look at what one has responded to.

And to be clean my point was about judges enjoying so much what they saw they either made comment about it or followed it to watch. And the drumline members noticed it and felt pride in it.

Maybe people should ask WHY a comment was made instead of blasting as irrelevant and missing the the point... and this is not directed at guardling...

IOW I mentioned four tics to show how clean it was and that’s why the judge followed after judging. How it got to be now vs then beats the #### out of me

Edited by JimF-LowBari
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6 hours ago, JimF-LowBari said:

Was it the 1975 Yankee Rebels drumline did like a 6 tic show at DCA? At end of execution time drum judge put his clipboard down and just followed the line until the end of the show to enjoy it. Believe a Brother Dave K story.

One of the things judges were trained in back then...you could only evaluate what was directly in front of you, If you were standing by the snares, but heard some errors in the tenors or basses, you were not supposed to assess any ticks on them, since you were not in a true position to evaluate those instruments. That is how we were taught, anyway.

A 6-tick show is amazing in any sense, not taking that away from them.  

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4 hours ago, JimF-LowBari said:

Lol glad you said just as subjective as today as that’s my opinion.

I marched DCA and RCA (lesser Sr circuit) and RCA was very lenient on what was tic-able. Still remember a weekday practice and hearing “it’s DCA show this weekend... execute #### it... execute”. Might have been Larry Hershman screaming it

My first judging was in the Garden State Circuit, while I was teaching some corps there. One year...76 or 77, they decided at the  annual meeting to implement what was called "national linear" judging, so that when corps would go to the big shows like the US Open or World Open they would not be surprised by their scores. Well, after the first couple of weeks of shows, scores were so low that the directors decided to scrap that REAL fast and went back to "circuit linear".   😎   

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1 minute ago, MikeD said:

One of the things judges were trained in back then...you could only evaluate what was directly in front of you, If you were standing by the snares, but heard some errors in the tenors or basses, you were not supposed to assess any ticks on them, since you were not in a true position to evaluate those instruments. That is how we were taught, anyway.

A 6-tick show is amazing in any sense, not taking that away from them.  

And think reference was made to a DCI corps doing 4 ticks at Finals that year for comparison. My whole idea was the judge did something that drumline took pride in. And posts above referenced the same thing.

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18 minutes ago, MikeD said:

My first judging was in the Garden State Circuit, while I was teaching some corps there. One year...76 or 77, they decided at the  annual meeting to implement what was called "national linear" judging, so that when corps would go to the big shows like the US Open or World Open they would not be surprised by their scores. Well, after the first couple of weeks of shows, scores were so low that the directors decided to scrap that REAL fast and went back to "circuit linear".   😎   

I’ve been collecting scores for years and currently adding cities to 70s/80s shows. When different corps in same year have same names sometimes you go by scores to figure out which corps. But when same corps has 50 in major circuit and 70 in a minor circuit it can be maddening. (Which the bleep Emerald Knights, Patriots, Phoenix, Northmen, Black Watch is this!?!?!)

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24 minutes ago, JimF-LowBari said:

I’ve been collecting scores for years and currently adding cities to 70s/80s shows. When different corps in same year have same names sometimes you go by scores to figure out which corps. But when same corps has 50 in major circuit and 70 in a minor circuit it can be maddening. (Which the bleep Emerald Knights, Patriots, Phoenix, Northmen, Black Watch is this!?!?!)

For the circuits like the GSC, a National Linear standard make no sense at all. Only a minority of the corps went to the big shows, and the wide range of skills caused scores at times barely in the double digits...total! I zeroed out one corps while judging drums, and I regretted it immediately...and still remember it 40+ years later. 

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8 hours ago, JimF-LowBari said:

Was it the 1975 Yankee Rebels drumline did like a 6 tic show at DCA? At end of execution time drum judge put his clipboard down and just followed the line until the end of the show to enjoy it. Believe a Brother Dave K story.

Dad has told me that story too as he was in that line. Or thinking of some of the great comments heard recently from Jeff or Allan that made their way out there...Neil for 2 the other year...always Charlie, especially those epic Crossmen 92 or Cadets 94 tapes....

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2 hours ago, tesmusic said:

BOA doesn't award a percussion caption award, and there have been many years in that circuit that many of the top groups have sub-standard percussion, and I feel it's largely due to the fact that there is no reward. With having the judges off the field, I could see some groups not being as meticulous with onfield percussion, which is very sad to me. It'll be easier to hide things for sure.

most band circuits that do have a percussion caption treat it as a specialty caption, not as part of the total score, so often the best band doesn't have the best percussion, tho now days with pretty much everyone upstairs, it's usually a band in the top of the heap that wins. 

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5 hours ago, GUARDLING said:

Do you actually believe people won't be challenged...

I believe that if the judging does not reward fine-grained rigor, complexity etc. because it can't get close enough to read the same, then there will be no reason to provide that challenge to the players. Designers will be placed in a point of tension: write for score? Or write for the members who actually are the paying customers and who want the most rigor they can accomplish?

Oh, they'll be challenged. But will they be challenged to the same degree that DCI has always challenged percussionists? And if not, will it be enough of a challenge to persuade these kids to pay 5 large for an experience that is not quite as high on the mountaintop of field drumming that it was before the rule change?

 

Quote

That all aside, my response was not about today BUT to a statement made of BITD You have to look at what one has responded to.

Fair enough; all too often talk of drum adjudication wanders off into an irrelevant discussion of whether tear-down or build-up is the more valid. My point here is that, regardless of the adjudication approach, drum kids in DCI are paying for the experience of holding themselves up against the toughest standards in the idiom. They're not interested in a watered-down experience.

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3 hours ago, MikeD said:

For the circuits like the GSC, a National Linear standard make no sense at all. Only a minority of the corps went to the big shows, and the wide range of skills caused scores at times barely in the double digits...total! I zeroed out one corps while judging drums, and I regretted it immediately...and still remember it 40+ years later. 

Old Jim Prime Sr. story:

Show in the old NEPA circuit, Belvederes et al IIRC. Every hornline got zeroed out, early season. Jimmer tells the Brass Caption head they had the best hornline of the day. Caption head responds, "But... we all got zeroes!" Jimmer doesn't bat an eyelash, responds "You had the BEST zero of the day!" :satisfied:

 To me, the biggest reason the tick system had to go. Jimmer would have ranked and rated them wonderfully with the modern system in place, and after hearing that story, I then knew why he wanted it implemented.

And you're spot on regards the GSC. In the mid 90's, really, Surf was the only one that should have been worried about the true DCI Linear, and competed for the lion's share outside the circuit. When they started worrying about that around 1996... I think it was one of the bigger stumbles that poleaxed that circuit, which was a shame. Most of them were Boys and Girls Club sponsored outfits doing a lot of good for a lot of kids who really thrived on the challenge, discipline, and structure as well as the friendliness those corps provided.

I feel yah on that Zero Tick. Very, very few times have I felt pushed to go into Box 1, and I do it shaking my head every time.

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