karuna

Field judges restricted to front sideline in 2019

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1 hour ago, MikeD said:

Ah, OK. I like the box placement. The sideline also works for me. If the corps does not present the battery for the judge to sample enough, then it is on them if their score is not what they might hope.  I just see no need to be running around on the field, but I know you think otherwise!

I’m all for field judging done intelligently. And most do. One guy didn’t and blew the issue up. There was the moment in Crown at finAls a few years ago and a big moment during OC at San Antonio last year 

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1 hour ago, gbass598 said:

Or maybe they will play more flams because those sort of disappeared when nobody could play them clean in a line setting.

Still a lot there, they just look and sound different at faster tempos 

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1 hour ago, mingusmonk said:

My point is that techs don't need to hover as much since judges are reading from front. They can find things to fix while hovering, but it will now be just as important to also understand where the reads can or won't happen.

They will. Drummers 

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43 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

I’m all for field judging done intelligently. And most do. One guy didn’t and blew the issue up. There was the moment in Crown at finAls a few years ago and a big moment during OC at San Antonio last year 

maybe it's just me but I will be delighted to not be distracted by watching/worrying about the field judges this coming summer (and beyond on media)

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16 minutes ago, George Dixon said:

maybe it's just me but I will be delighted to not be distracted by watching/worrying about the field judges this coming summer (and beyond on media)

If it's for member safety, I'm all for it. If it's discovered that it impacts scores and those impacts can't be solved for by changes in design, etc., then maybe they'll come up with a hybrid solution. As far as watering down of parts, I just don't see it happening unless it's for the sake of cleanliness (which is the way it's always been as far as I ever experienced.) IMHO, writers are gonna write and drummers are going to drum and the parts are going to have some meat to them...because that's what we do. Until I see it in action, I just don't know.

I will say that I think visuals by the tenor lines will decrease from approximately 642 per show down to like 300....

Edited by Weaklefthand4ever

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1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said:

I just want music to be a 50/50 partner 

don't be silly 

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9 hours ago, BigW said:

As I said... I think they've been lucky the "Big One" hasn't happened yet and they know it. Ever been out there in the trenches? A lack of situational awareness for 2 seconds can get someone hit- or create a situation where the audience pays more attention to that than the performance.  The other issue becomes, how much is one trying to survive out there and not get run over rather than actually observing, listening, and evaluating. It's been part of the game for decades. Do things to force the adjudicator out of the area then complain they're not deep enough to suit you. :wink:

Better training isn't going to help. The DCI people have extensive experience, they know how to get out of the way and how to move as best they can. The kids know to alter or yell if they sense a collision or get out the stiff arm (My HS kids were trained in the stiff arm just in case...). It just may not be enough anymore.

Tony...there's alot of heat directed at the visual people here, writers in particular, and alot of percussion people upset.  Well, as a visual dude, I'm upset.  If you're judging "the drill" (ensemble is a big part of your itinerary, or should be) how can you get a read on the front to back ("Y" axis) when you're stuck on the front sideline?  It's really not much different than the majority of venues, judging from the box, during any given season, lots of high school fields.  I learned, not too long ago lol, from a gent named Jim Costello, to look at my drill from the side...because that, folks, is where the bodies are buried.  You can tell SO much how an ensemble is trained (and succeeding) from the side.  What they (DCI) are implementing is only marginally different than judging from the box...which puts them with, like, a peer judging outfit here in SoCal.  I hate it.  We have one band circuit out here, Shirlee Whitcomb's WBA, that has two judges down and roaming, a visual proficiency judge and an individual music guy (oddly, they place the drum judge in the box).   You have people like Robert Soloman doing the visual caption and staying WAY out of the drill, but able to get that crucial front to back read (easy example: is that big company front really straight?).  My point is standards, because when you can't evaluate because you can't SEE, they will degrade and disappear from the sheet.   I'm still in it teaching and judging and have progressed with the activity over a half century,  and I can't help but think that essential parts of what we have built are going the way of the Dodo.  So, call me  olde and ancient, but don't drag my standards down...because you can't...but you *can* (D@mmit) legislate them out!

Edited by chasgroh
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2 minutes ago, chasgroh said:

Tony...there's alot of heat directed at the visual people here, writers in particular, and alot of percussion people upset.  Well, as a visual dude, I'm upset.  If you're judging "the drill" (ensemble is a big part of your itinerary, or should be) how can you get a read on the front to back ("Y" axis) when you're stuck on the front sideline?  It's really not much different than the majority of venues during any given season, lots of high school fields.  I learned, not too long ago lol, from a gent named Jim Costello, to look at my drill from the side...because that, folks, is where the bodies are buried.  You can tell SO much how an ensemble is trained (and succeeding) from the side.  What they (DCI) are implementing is only marginally different than judging from the box...which puts them with, like, a peer judging outfit here in SoCal.  I hate it.  We have one band circuit out here, Shirlee Whitcomb's WBA, that has two judges down and roaming, a visual proficiency judge and an individual music guy (oddly, they place the drum judge in the box).   You have people like Robert Soloman doing the visual caption and staying WAY out of the drill, but able to get that crucial front to back read (easy example: is that big company front really straight?).  My point is standards, because when you can't evaluate because you can't SEE, they will degrade and disappear from the sheet.   I'm still in it teaching and judging and have progressed with the activity over a half century,  and I can't help but think that essential parts of what we have built are going the way of the Dodo.  So, call me  olde and ancient, but don't drag my standards down...because you can't...but you *can* (D@mmit) legislate them out!

Judging from the side is silly though, because you can't see those forms from the box. Drum corps (and marching bands) perform shows for an audience in the stands. How things look from the stands is all that matters. People make fun of "BD diags," yet BD still wins vis trophies all the #### time. The fact is, it doesn't matter what the drill looks like from the side. 

The other fact is, the on-field vis judge is usually standing at the front of the form anyway. 

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1 minute ago, jeffmolnar said:

Judging from the side is silly though, because you can't see those forms from the box. Drum corps (and marching bands) perform shows for an audience in the stands. How things look from the stands is all that matters. People make fun of "BD diags," yet BD still wins vis trophies all the #### time. The fact is, it doesn't matter what the drill looks like from the side. 

The other fact is, the on-field vis judge is usually standing at the front of the form anyway. 

...my point is standards.  What do you mean "silly?"  You can't see a company front from the box?  It's just a *factor* dude...you're not standing there all the time, but you at least have the opportunity to adjudicate and get that micro view you *can't* get from the box.  Everything changes, I understand that...what will come will come...

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10 minutes ago, chasgroh said:

...my point is standards.  What do you mean "silly?"  You can't see a company front from the box?  It's just a *factor* dude...you're not standing there all the time, but you at least have the opportunity to adjudicate and get that micro view you *can't* get from the box.  Everything changes, I understand that...what will come will come...

You can see a company front from the box... but if you can't tell if it's "really straight" from the box, then it doesn't matter if it's really straight.

There will still be an on-field visual judge adjudicating things that you can't see from the box. This makes sense, since most stadiums have their first row of seats at about field level. Having judges both at field level and up in the box makes absolute sense.

Marching shows aren't designed to be viewed from the side (or from the back). They're staged to be viewed head-on from the front. How things look and sound from that angle is all that should matter. When you're watching a film, you're not judging it because part of the set that's out of frame is not completely painted. It doesn't matter, because the actual product is what is framed by the camera. In the marching arts, the actual product is what you can see from the stands. There rest is meaningless.

Rewarding one group because they do a meaningless thing better than an other group is, indeed, silly.

Edited by jeffmolnar

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