When Will We See A Full-Field Tarp in DCI?

[BigW]

1 minute ago, Bluzes said:

So true none of my memories of great shows involves props. The reason I sit very low on the fifty is not to get closer to the props. I sometimes close my eyes to keep the visual out. That's what I tell my wife anyway so she doesn't think I am sleeping during boring shows, sort of like posting in church.

One of those dudes that love to be in the Face Peeler section. Old School. The guy when you pop that horn up, the one you know you're playing to down there. 

[jeffmolnar]

6 minutes ago, Jake W. said:

Right....no one is arguing that. A prop or tarp or ANY other design element ideally enhances an already-spectacular performance, and the same prop or tarp or design element could be used ineffectively with another group, or even with the same group on a less-talented year. Props can be used as a crutch, and often are. They are inherently neither good nor bad. They can also be used to properly (pun intended) enhance a performance that is otherwise great and now better with an interesting design element that underscores the music or idea in a way that would have been absent without the prop. To say they are all bad or weak (or to say they are all inherently great & strong) is ridiculous, and that's my point with O'Fallon's tarp. It could be used quite ineffectively by another group, rendering is useless and a waste. O'Fallon used quite effectively, enhancing their music in a way that JUST strong drill alone wouldn't have done quite as effectively. Same with SCV's nesting platforms. Doesn't mean that would be the case if another corps or group used the exact same props. 

Yeah, fundamentally disagree. If O'Fallon needs a giant tarp for their drill to enhance the music, then their drill is bad.

It could be done effectively without the tarp. It just wasn't. I'm being 100% genuine when I say that to me, props are distractions 100% of the time. I never appreciate them. I'm never impressed by them. They're always a cheesy ploy to get points the easy way. SCV included.

[Bluzes]

Just now, BigW said:

One of those dudes that love to be in the Face Peeler section. Old School. The guy when you pop that horn up, the one you know you're playing to down there. 

Right there with you back in the G days late for a show no time to save just sit in the front row with you eares cupped so you don't get a whitwall. I have no idea why folks still do that today whitwalls are back in.

[Bluzes]

2 minutes ago, jeffmolnar said:

Yeah, fundamentally disagree. If O'Fallon needs a giant tarp for their drill to enhance the music, then their drill is bad

Two years ago when it was on FLO it looked like snow, was waiting for The Chiefs to come out and kick butt. There was no drill to speak of resembled ice skaters randomly circling the rink. Thinking there is no way this is going to catch on. Also, the efforts put forth by the staff/volunteers to get this on & off the field is crazy. They were no spring chickens felt bad for them.

[Jake W.]

2 minutes ago, jeffmolnar said:

Yeah, fundamentally disagree. If O'Fallon needs a giant tarp for their drill to enhance the music, then their drill is bad.

It could be done effectively without the tarp. It just wasn't. I'm being 100% genuine when I say that to me, props are distractions 100% of the time. I never appreciate them. I'm never impressed by them. They're always a cheesy ploy to get points the easy way. SCV included.

And I fundamentally disagree with you as well. Why not all three? Or other planes of enhancement that are neither drill nor props? If a ballet company does Turandot is it less effective than when Phantom did it because there was no drill involved? I'm sure you realize how silly that idea is. We're all trying to enhance great music by attaching it to a visual component. If the visual component is effective in enhancing or portraying the music, then what's the problem? Why do you feel it's a cheesy way to get points? Why is it bad that O'Fallon had great drill and music ON an effective tarp that portrayed their canvas theme well? Tell me a more effective way with JUST drill that the group could have portrayed their theme. In my mind, splashes of color on a giant white canvas is a pretty effective way to portray...you know...splashes of color on a giant white canvas.

To be clear, I'm not saying props are necessary EVER, or that I prefer them, or that they're even used effectively most of the time. I simply prefer great designs, and if that includes great prop or tarp usage, then great. But why dig in so firmly against an idea that great music & great drill was enhanced with great prop/tarp usage in these few instances?

[jeffmolnar]

14 minutes ago, Jake W. said:

And I fundamentally disagree with you as well. Why not all three? Or other planes of enhancement that are neither drill nor props? If a ballet company does Turandot is it less effective than when Phantom did it because there was no drill involved? I'm sure you realize how silly that idea is. We're all trying to enhance great music by attaching it to a visual component. If the visual component is effective in enhancing or portraying the music, then what's the problem? Why do you feel it's a cheesy way to get points? Why is it bad that O'Fallon had great drill and music ON an effective tarp that portrayed their canvas theme well? Tell me a more effective way with JUST drill that the group could have portrayed their theme. In my mind, splashes of color on a giant white canvas is a pretty effective way to portray...you know...splashes of color on a giant white canvas.

To be clear, I'm not saying props are necessary EVER, or that I prefer them, or that they're even used effectively most of the time. I simply prefer great designs, and if that includes great prop or tarp usage, then great. But why dig in so firmly against an idea that great music & great drill was enhanced with great prop/tarp usage in these few instances?

I feel it's a cheesy way to get points because the essence of this activity is movement and music by human beings. I could watch a psychedelic computer render set to music if I all I cared about was seeing "a visual component enhancing the music." The whole point of the marching arts is the performance by the members. I don't even take issue with things like singing or mic'd brass, because that's still music being performed by the members. That's the natural progression of the activity. Props are just superfluous fluff that at best are a minor distraction, and at worst take many members out of the performance by forcing them to walk around like idiots pushing them around the field.

edit: as for what O'Fallon could've done--they could've done a different theme that didn't require a massive tarp to get their point across. They chose that theme because their design team was creatively bankrupt, and it was an easy way to buy GE points without requiring anything from their students.

Edited January 14, 2019 by jeffmolnar

[Stu]

20 minutes ago, jeffmolnar said:

I feel it's a cheesy way to get points because the essence of this activity is movement and music by human beings. I could watch a psychedelic computer render set to music if I all I cared about was seeing "a visual component enhancing the music." The whole point of the marching arts is the performance by the members. I don't even take issue with things like singing or mic'd brass, because that's still music being performed by the members. That's the natural progression of the activity. Props are just superfluous fluff that at best are a minor distraction, and at worst take many members out of the performance by forcing them to walk around like idiots pushing them around the field.

edit: as for what O'Fallon could've done--they could've done a different theme that didn't require a massive tarp to get their point across. They chose that theme because their design team was creatively bankrupt, and it was an easy way to buy GE points without requiring anything from their students.

Using your criteria, unless you desire to encroach into hypocrisy, you have to maintain that while body movement is an essence in the activity by your own definition flags, rifles, and all other impliments utilized by the guard are (cheesy visual enhancement props). And therefore you must despise them just as much. Or, are ya going to try and wiggle justify your way out of this conundrum?

Edited January 14, 2019 by Stu

[Jurassic Lancer]

2 hours ago, Jake W. said:

If we're talking early 00s, Lawrence Central in particular is THE group, corps or high school band, that truly made dance and non-marching movement an integral, large-scale part of their shows, and we obviously see that influence still today all across the activity. Randy Greenwell & Matt James have no corps experience to my knowledge, but despite that, the two directors, along with Greg Hagen as their visual head during that time, are truly responsible for elevating dance-based movement to a status equal to marching-based movement in their shows. We can argue till the cows come home about whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, but to deny Lawrence Central's early 00s influence on the activity, and not just high school band, is ridiculous.

Matt James wrote drill for BAC.

[jeffmolnar]

Just now, Stu said:

Using your criteria, unless you desire to encroach into hypocrisy, you have to maintain that by definition that flags, rifles, and all other impliments utilized by the guard are (cheesy visual enhancement props). And therefore you must despise them just as much. Or, are ya going to try and wiggle justify your way out of this conundrum?

It's hardly a conundrum. Flags, rifles, and other guard equipment are tools used in the performance by members. A rifle doesn't toss itself. Flags don't spin on their own. The colorguard uses those tools to perform. They control the tools that should be used to generate GE.

[Jake W.]

18 minutes ago, jeffmolnar said:

I feel it's a cheesy way to get points because the essence of this activity is movement and music by human beings. I could watch a psychedelic computer render set to music if I all I cared about was seeing "a visual component enhancing the music." The whole point of the marching arts is the performance by the members. I don't even take issue with things like singing or mic'd brass, because that's still music being performed by the members. That's the natural progression of the activity. Props are just superfluous fluff that at best are a minor distraction, and at worst take many members out of the performance by forcing them to walk around like idiots pushing them around the field.

edit: as for what O'Fallon could've done--they could've done a different theme that didn't require a massive tarp to get their point across. They chose that theme because their design team was creatively bankrupt, and it was an easy way to buy GE points without requiring anything from their students.

I absolutely agree on the point about members spending a large chunk of the show moving items instead of performing. I think you misunderstand me a bit —- I’m not saying these props, when used effectively, become integral to a great performance and therefore necessary. I’m saying that, when used effectively, they enhance, highlight, or showcase the already-present talents of the performers. O’Fallon was already a solidly-performing group, both musically & visually, and their performance quality was underscored by a really unique & visually-interesting theme to go along with it. We’ve already agreed that we like themes or ideas or programmatic design elements to tie a performance together in this activity, otherwise everyone would still be marching three unrelated pieces of music and calling it “O’Fallon 2018”. 

Again, there are many, MANY instances where I think prop usage could have better reflected the music if it was replaced by an intense few charts of drill...the end of SCV’s show this year, for instance. I just also think there are moments, like the beginning of SCV this year to Peter Gabriel, where the prop work was so effective in portraying the music that I couldn’t imagine a drill design that could do the job better. The former is most often the case, but it’s silly to assert that the latter doesn’t exist.