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When Will We See A Full-Field Tarp in DCI?


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On 1/14/2019 at 5:08 AM, jeffmolnar said:

I disagree that there was pull and push outside of Texas. I went to a TX “BOA school” and followed the top groups at nationals during that time. Everyone was still chasing The Cavaliers in design. That corps designed circles around most of the top H.S. groups and their cheesy props, voice overs, silly costumes, etc. Cavies got their GE the hard way, without relying on external “crutches.” TX was obviously better about not giving into BOA nonsense, but nationally you still had bands like Carmel and Marian Catholic who would’ve fit right in at the UIL state marching contest.

Doing something wacky and different isn’t inherently “pushing the activity.” It’s just being wacky and different. Covering the entire field with a tarp isn’t a feast for my eyes, because my eyes are rolling into the back of my head. It’s such a juvenile demand for attention. Instead of generating interest with your actual performance, you demand that I pay attention to your giant prop that’s burning a hole in my retinas. Extremely lame, and so very “high school.”

Innovation is born from limitations. You mentioned sports, but I don’t think that comparison works like you want it to. In basketball they might slightly change the rules from time to time, but the court is the same size with 2 hoops at the same height. In soccer they might change how certain penalties work, but they still don’t let you pick up the ball with your hands and run. Coaches have to design their plays around each game’s limitations. That’s what makes them beautiful.

DCI giving in to the BOA prop arms race has been super disappointing for me to watch. That’s not innovation, that’s just claiming freebie GE points because you weren’t a good enough designer to get them the real way. I get why it’s done — it’s an easier, more reliable way of securing GE points. That doesn’t make it more impressive, though, and at the end of the day, that’s what I want out of a DCI show. To be impressed.

Thank you..I couldn't have said it better

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12 hours ago, MikeD said:

"True innovation" comes from many concepts, not JUST one. Sure, working within limits and creating something great  is one way. But...so is looking outside the box and accepting no limits. You can achieve greatness in either approach. You can also achieve junk in either approach...and everywhere in between. 

DCI was formed in part because the corps felt limited by rules like the VFW mandated. We even had a caption called Cadence, where three times in a show the timing judge checked the tempo, and corps got penalized if their tempo was outside a narrowly proscribed range, something close to 126-132 BPM. Were there great shows in that era? Absolutely. I saw my first show around age 10 in 1963, and I have loved it ever since, right up to 2018. Blessed Sacrament Golden Knights 1969 is on my all-time favorite list, as is St Lucy's Cadets 1966, and a host of shows from 1971, including my corps (Cadets), the 27th Lancers, Blue Rock and Argonne Rebels. But...so is Blue Devils Felliniesque, Crown's Relentless, BK Avian, Bluecoats Downside Up, and others of the modern era that have integrated props VERY well.

You mention the tools that have always been there. When I started marching in 1964, flags were not spun, nor were rifles. Drumlines only had snares, single tenors, straight bass drums, rudimental basses and cymbals. No mallets, quads, pits, etc. Horns had one valve, and either a slipslide or rotor. 

 

hell Contras weren't even 10 years old then

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18 hours ago, MikeD said:

"True innovation" comes from many concepts, not JUST one. Sure, working within limits and creating something great  is one way. But...so is looking outside the box and accepting no limits. You can achieve greatness in either approach. You can also achieve junk in either approach...and everywhere in between. 

DCI was formed in part because the corps felt limited by rules like the VFW mandated. We even had a caption called Cadence, where three times in a show the timing judge checked the tempo, and corps got penalized if their tempo was outside a narrowly proscribed range, something close to 126-132 BPM. Were there great shows in that era? Absolutely. I saw my first show around age 10 in 1963, and I have loved it ever since, right up to 2018. Blessed Sacrament Golden Knights 1969 is on my all-time favorite list, as is St Lucy's Cadets 1966, and a host of shows from 1971, including my corps (Cadets), the 27th Lancers, Blue Rock and Argonne Rebels. But...so is Blue Devils Felliniesque, Crown's Relentless, BK Avian, Bluecoats Downside Up, and others of the modern era that have integrated props VERY well.

You mention the tools that have always been there. When I started marching in 1964, flags were not spun, nor were rifles. Drumlines only had snares, single tenors, straight bass drums, rudimental basses and cymbals. No mallets, quads, pits, etc. Horns had one valve, and either a slipslide or rotor. 

 

Everything you mentioned there is a natural progression though. Flags were not spun, but they were there. The colorguard section existed. The drumline existed. Hornline existed. The sections have evolved naturally over time. That's not the stuff I take issue with at all.

edit: this website should also naturally evolve like every other forum on the internet and give you a few minutes after a post to do an "invisible edit" to correct typos.

Edited by jeffmolnar
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36 minutes ago, jeffmolnar said:

Everything you mentioned there is a natural progression though. Flags were not spun, but they were there. The colorguard section existed. The drumline existed. Hornline existed. The sections have evolved naturally over time. That's not the stuff I take issue with at all.

edit: this website should also naturally evolve like every other forum on the internet and give you a few minutes after a post to do an "invisible edit" to correct typos.

The first official drum & bugle corps was formed by the Marines and founded in Nov, 1934. At the time of the unit’s founding, the Marines Drum & Bugle Corps was comprised of a drum major, sixteen buglers, three snare drummers, three tenor drummers, two bass drummers, and a cymbal player. The Color Guard (American Flag) and Honor Guard (Rifle/Sabre) were seperate entities and at times did appear in conjunction, but not always.

So....the front ensemble.... You must then take issue with, and despise, Marimbas, Vibraphones, and other mallet percussion, grounded or not, because they are 'not' a natural progression extension of original drum corps.

Edited by Stu
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14 minutes ago, jeffmolnar said:

Everything you mentioned there is a natural progression though. Flags were not spun, but they were there. The colorguard section existed. The drumline existed. Hornline existed. The sections have evolved naturally over time. That's not the stuff I take issue with at all.

edit: this website should also naturally evolve like every other forum on the internet and give you a few minutes after a post to do an "invisible edit" to correct typos.

Well, you can also say that the tarps and props are really enhanced ground.     :dancin:   

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36 minutes ago, Stu said:

The first official drum & bugle corps was formed by the Marines and founded in Nov, 1934. At the time of the unit’s founding, the Marines Drum & Bugle Corps was comprised of a drum major, sixteen buglers, three snare drummers, three tenor drummers, two bass drummers, and a cymbal player. The Color Guard (American Flag) and Honor Guard (Rifle/Sabre) were seperate entities and at times did appear in conjunction, but not always.

So....the front ensemble.... You must then take issue with, and despise, Marimbas, Vibraphones, and other mallet percussion, grounded or not, because they are 'not' a natural progression extension of original drum corps.

Front ensemble is made up of percussion instruments. Original drum and bugle corps had percussion instruments.

That is... pretty obvious, chief.

Regardless, I'm not saying that we should do drum corps like we did in 1934. I swear, it's like some of you can't even read.

Edited by jeffmolnar
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58 minutes ago, jeffmolnar said:

Front ensemble is made up of percussion instruments. Original drum and bugle corps had percussion instruments.

That is... pretty obvious, chief.

Regardless, I'm not saying that we should do drum corps like we did in 1934. I swear, it's like some of you can't even read.

But you did say you believe in natural progression extension of the original equipment. Drums are percuusion instruments, but percussion is a general term and drum is a specific subset of that general term. This activity is not Percussion & Bugle Corps but Drum. Melodic mallet instrumetnts, though percussion, are not drums nor are they a natural progression extension of a drum.  Using your reasoning then bugles are not only brass they are Wind Instruments; a general term like percussion. They are a subset if that general term, but they are wind instruments just like drums are percussion. So if you are saying Percussion, general term then Wind Instrument, general term, must also be acceptable based on that definition. Therefore all wind instruments, including woodwinds, must be acceptable like all percussion instruments must be acceptable.

Edited by Stu
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wow - I opened a can o' worms

I literally just wondered who you guys thought would do this first - I personally see Cavaliers attempting it. JMO

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13 minutes ago, George Dixon said:

wow - I opened a can o' worms

I literally just wondered who you guys thought would do this first - I personally see Cavaliers attempting it. JMO

After last year, I would have thought Cavies swore off using tarps.

Edited by Jurassic Lancer
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13 minutes ago, Stu said:

But you did say you believe in natural progression extension of the original equipment. Drums are percuusion instruments, but percussion is a general term and drum is a specific subset of that general term. This activity is not Percussion & Bugle Corps but Drum. Melodic mallet instrumetnts, though percussion, are not drums nor are they a natural progression extension of a drum.  Using your reasoning then bugles are not only brass they are Wind Instruments; a general term like percussion. They are a subset if that general term, but they are wind instruments just like drums are percussion. So if you are saying Percussion, general term then Wind Instrument, general term, must also be acceptable based on that definition. Therefore all wind instruments, including woodwinds, must be acceptable like all percussion instruments must be acceptable.

...again, you know what I meant.

I'm done replying to you.

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