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When Will We See A Full-Field Tarp in DCI?


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38 minutes ago, jeffmolnar said:

...again, you know what I meant.

I'm done replying to you.

He probably did know what you meant, but there’s nothing wrong with pointing out a flaw in one’s logic, unless, of course, you are for woodwinds in drum corps, then there’s no flaw at all in your reasoning. 

I get it, we all have biases especially when it comes to an activity we all hold dearly, and even more so when said activity evolves at the speed of light. But there’s nothing wrong with pointing a bias out to someone either. 

I still maintain —- props & tarps & that whole mess are neither bad nor good for this activity as they exist —- it’s how they’re implemented that makes them successful or not. Why does anyone care that a tarp covers the whole field if it makes the show more effective?

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1 minute ago, Jake W. said:

He probably did know what you meant, but there’s nothing wrong with pointing out a flaw in one’s logic, unless, of course, you are for woodwinds in drum corps, then there’s no flaw at all in your reasoning. 

I get it, we all have biases especially when it comes to an activity we all hold dearly, and even more so when said activity evolves at the speed of light. But there’s nothing wrong with pointing a bias out to someone either. 

I still maintain —- props & tarps & that whole mess are neither bad nor good for this activity as they exist —- it’s how they’re implemented that makes them successful or not. Why does anyone care that a tarp covers the whole field if it makes the show more effective?

I wouldn't like woodwinds in drum corps (and I've expressed that opinion on this forum), but I understand why we might see it some day. It's a natural extension of the idea of having wind players perform on a foodball field.

Christ, there's no "flaw in my logic." This isn't some objective thing that can be determined by numbers. I'm quite obviously expressing my opinion, as is anyone else who makes a post on this forum.

As for why I care about a tarp, it's because I absolutely hate the idea of rewarding a group with a higher score because of a prop. Yes, I realize that the "general effect" category has always rewarded design -- but the kids still had to perform that design. They still had to march the drill, do the work, play the music as written. The effect was still generated by the performance of the members.

The effect of O'Fallon tarp changing colors or whatever is not generated by the performance of the members. It's generated by a giant prop. (and if a member happens to be the one who pushes that button on the prop, I don't find that to be a particularly impressive action worthy of reward.)

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3 minutes ago, jeffmolnar said:

I wouldn't like woodwinds in drum corps (and I've expressed that opinion on this forum), but I understand why we might see it some day. It's a natural extension of the idea of having wind players perform on a foodball field.

Christ, there's no "flaw in my logic." This isn't some objective thing that can be determined by numbers. I'm quite obviously expressing my opinion, as is anyone else who makes a post on this forum.

As for why I care about a tarp, it's because I absolutely hate the idea of rewarding a group with a higher score because of a prop. Yes, I realize that the "general effect" category has always rewarded design -- but the kids still had to perform that design. They still had to march the drill, do the work, play the music as written. The effect was still generated by the performance of the members.

The effect of O'Fallon tarp changing colors or whatever is not generated by the performance of the members. It's generated by a giant prop. (and if a member happens to be the one who pushes that button on the prop, I don't find that to be a particularly impressive action worthy of reward.)

I get you, I really do. But the reality is that so much of placement in the upper eschelons of our activity is based on continuity of design, and the performers have very little, and often times nothing, to do with that. It’s just how it is. You mentioned you’re from Texas; the reason many bands have embraced BOA over UIL is because the scoring system in UIL doesn’t account for difficulty or design flaws or strengths. We have as an activity long ago embraced the GE caption as yes, a reflection of the performers selling the material, but also as a reflection of how well the visual design is a manifestation of the music we’re hearing, and vice versa, and if it all makes sense when put together. The kids have nothing to do with that. I get that the kids then perform the design, but they also perform with or on the props that they also didn’t choose. I’m not sure why that’s different. 

If, at the end of the day, O’Fallon (hypothetically) was given spectacular drill and a great music book to make an excellent, top notch show....and then, to highlight the canvas theme, the directors place that same well-performing group and same excellent top-notch show design and the pops of color become much clearer and the theme that the students are portraying becomes clearer than with great music & drill alone....where’s the fault in that?

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24 minutes ago, Jake W. said:

I get you, I really do. But the reality is that so much of placement in the upper eschelons of our activity is based on continuity of design, and the performers have very little, and often times nothing, to do with that. It’s just how it is. You mentioned you’re from Texas; the reason many bands have embraced BOA over UIL is because the scoring system in UIL doesn’t account for difficulty or design flaws or strengths. We have as an activity long ago embraced the GE caption as yes, a reflection of the performers selling the material, but also as a reflection of how well the visual design is a manifestation of the music we’re hearing, and vice versa, and if it all makes sense when put together. The kids have nothing to do with that. I get that the kids then perform the design, but they also perform with or on the props that they also didn’t choose. I’m not sure why that’s different. 

I dunno, my school originally started doing BOA because UIL only does the state marching contest every other year. Kids don't work as hard during "off" years. My school (Marcus) would eventually fully embrace the BOA design philosophy, but that wasn't why they started doing the shows in the first place. It's almost as if they had to adapt to the prop arms race to be competitive.

In any case, the fact that the kids have nothing to do with design is exactly why I dislike props. Because without props, the kids still have to execute perfectly to achieve the effect. Cadets won in 2000 with an extremely effective show. It was also an extremely difficult show, one that the vast majority of the corps competing that year would not have been able to execute as well. Those other corps wouldn't have earned the same GE score as The Cadets. Same goes for Cavaliers in 2002, and many others over the years. When my old high school wins a BOA regional, it's usually with a show that at least half of the other finalists could have won with as well.

24 minutes ago, Jake W. said:

If, at the end of the day, O’Fallon (hypothetically) was given spectacular drill and a great music book to make an excellent, top notch show....and then, to highlight the canvas theme, the directors place that same well-performing group and same excellent top-notch show design and the pops of color become much clearer and the theme that the students are portraying becomes clearer than with great music & drill alone....where’s the fault in that?

Because you and I both know that's not how the process works. The idea for the giant prop came first and the rest of the show was designed around that. The top DCI corps are doing the same thing. SCV flat out admitted during the videos last season that the first thing they decided for the show was to have giant platforms that "stack" on each other. The entire "Babylon" theme came about because of the props, not the other way around.

It takes the focus away from designing a show that achieves effect through capitalizing on impressive execution, and shifts to designing a show that achieves its effect by using a giant prop to minimize performer exposure and make it easier to earn high execution scores.

Edited by jeffmolnar
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On 1/14/2019 at 5:08 AM, jeffmolnar said:

I disagree that there was pull and push outside of Texas. I went to a TX “BOA school” and followed the top groups at nationals during that time. Everyone was still chasing The Cavaliers in design. That corps designed circles around most of the top H.S. groups and their cheesy props, voice overs, silly costumes, etc. Cavies got their GE the hard way, without relying on external “crutches.” TX was obviously better about not giving into BOA nonsense, but nationally you still had bands like Carmel and Marian Catholic who would’ve fit right in at the UIL state marching contest.

Doing something wacky and different isn’t inherently “pushing the activity.” It’s just being wacky and different. Covering the entire field with a tarp isn’t a feast for my eyes, because my eyes are rolling into the back of my head. It’s such a juvenile demand for attention. Instead of generating interest with your actual performance, you demand that I pay attention to your giant prop that’s burning a hole in my retinas. Extremely lame, and so very “high school.”

Innovation is born from limitations. You mentioned sports, but I don’t think that comparison works like you want it to. In basketball they might slightly change the rules from time to time, but the court is the same size with 2 hoops at the same height. In soccer they might change how certain penalties work, but they still don’t let you pick up the ball with your hands and run. Coaches have to design their plays around each game’s limitations. That’s what makes them beautiful.

DCI giving in to the BOA prop arms race has been super disappointing for me to watch. That’s not innovation, that’s just claiming freebie GE points because you weren’t a good enough designer to get them the real way. I get why it’s done — it’s an easier, more reliable way of securing GE points. That doesn’t make it more impressive, though, and at the end of the day, that’s what I want out of a DCI show. To be impressed.

 I too have been disappointed by the arms race as a relates to props tarps costumes and electronics .  But, I think the reason has a lot more to do with sponsorships people promoting each other and their products and design ideas with their motivation centered on  making money off the activity versus  trying to be more creative .    

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5 hours ago, George Dixon said:

wow - I opened a can o' worms

I literally just wondered who you guys thought would do this first - I personally see Cavaliers attempting it. JMO

what they used worked so well last year with all of the wipeouts

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On 1/15/2019 at 6:53 PM, Jake W. said:

What an insightful addition to this thread.

LOL  no need for extraneous verbage

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Somehow I missed this discussion until today and its one that hits close to home.  After living with the "tarp" for two years, I just don't think it would work in Drum Corps from a care and feeding perspective.  The amount of work that it took to keep it ready for 5 or 6 contests in a year (it was NEVER used at football games or other performances) was massive.  The band dads almost had a full time job keeping it ready.  Also, there were many, many rehearsals (and a few contests) where it could not be used either because of moisture in the air or a wind over 2 or 3 MPH (OK, maybe a little more).  If you saw the tarp up close, it was pretty trashed by the end of the season (again, a season that can't compare to a summer tour).  That aside, I probably can help you get a good deal on a field sized tarp that I know is for sale 🙂

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