Stu Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said: actually to be specific, accusations were brought forward a year ago. Actual charges cam much later. dates matter Yes, but presumtion of innocence also matters in both cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said: point of order. i saw no one refer to these people as idiots. However, in the court of public opinion, with any type of collective or league, often times the whole suffers for the actions of a few. When the Ray Rice scandal broke, it wasn't viewed as a Baltimore Ravens issue....it was viewed as an NFL issue. When the whole kneeling for the National Anthem issue exploded, except for one, the individual players weren't targeted, the NFL was. In the case of Ray Rice I did not hear anybody holding the Cowboys, the Dolphins, or any team other than the Ravens and NFL as the governing body accountable. It was a specific issue to Ravens and NFL, not to any of the other teams. In the case of the kneeling in protest, not merely sitting yet respecting, but actually protesting, when a person is in the uniform of their employer and on the clock, their freedom of protest expression can and should be curtailed to the desires of the team owner and the governing body that is over the employer. Out of uniform and off the clock individual freedom of protest prevails, but not in uniform and on the clock because during those times they are official representatives of the employer. Edited April 8, 2019 by Stu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Stu said: My context here is specific. It stems from the discussion of school boards fearing to house all other corps because of the actions of a very few, combined with a poster who said earlier that another possible shoe dropping is enough of a justification to cause pause with actually calling those other corps innocent. Here is an example of exactly what I mean by declare: At this juncture the Board, Director, and Staff of (inject name if a non-accused corps here) should not only be presumed as innocent but moreso should be declaired as innocent. That is unless something specific to them and only them is charged, then it should move from declared to presumed innocent until found guilty. Is that more clear? How school boards respond to things is beyond our control. One hopes the school boards act rationally, but history tells us, some do, but some don't. More to the point however, unless I'm missing something here I've not witnessed a lot of schools around the country acting irrationally and declaring their schools and facilities off limits to all DCI Corps, except in a few in numbers isolated cases so far. First off, the national schools like the monies their typically empty school practice fields, gyms, dorms in the summer generate from rents. Secondly, unless there is a public outcry in their communities not to house Corps, they have hundreds of other things on their plate to deal with. I suppose if schools begin to prevent DCI Corps en masse from their facilities then of course we have a problem.. But lets not go looking to find a solution to a problem that may not currently exist, Stu. Lots of these schools have WGI units, or they secure funds for their School's MB's by sponsoring shows, or they get clinics for their students, or their students participate in DCI, or their MB staff do. Unless I see a public outcry in these communities to their school board's, I would not worry about " presumption of innocence ", as from my current assessment of things in this regard, this seems to be already present with 95- 98% of the schools already re. the DCI Corps . These DCI Corps are in the process of locking down their tour, housing and practice facilities for the 2019 season Stu.... and I'm not hearing of many Corps having problems with their housing and practice facilities accommodations, nor losing many show sponsors, due to the behaviors of a few DCI Corps personnel, Stu. Edited April 8, 2019 by BRASSO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 5 hours ago, Stu said: There is no possibly about it; innocent until proven guilty is one of the foundational principles of true honor and righetousness. And I have named other corps such as Academy which are innocent. But will say now, for the record, for you, that the directors, boards, and staff of all DCI WC/OC corps, as well as the DCI corporate administrators, are 100% innocent until proven guilty. Now if you have something solid to bring forth, the corps you have that solid info on should be investigated. I do care about the youth. And the moment proof, legal proof of criminal activity where someone gets convicted occurs, I will, at that time, say that person, board, corps, organization is guilty. Until then there is no possibly about it; they are all innocent. Yes, innocent until proven guilty is what Constitution insists upon, and for which I'm sure many of us are thankful for. Your idealism is understood, but unfortunately, things don't work that way at all in reality. Why is it that way? Because the people who framed the Constitution didn't want the "Court of Public Opinion" to unjustly put someone in jail or facing a noose. I think we all get this. The problem is, the Court of Public Opinion right now can still be very damning to an individual or entity whether they're right, wrong, innocent, not guilty, whatever shade of gray one wishes to use. A corps might be as white as the driven snow, but there will still be hard questions raised from some skeptics, knuckleheads, whatever, for some time to come. I can tell you it's not easy to walk into a job interview where the questions have ended up being insinuated, "the last director had corps experience just like you do and well, he ended up fired for inappropriate relationships, you're a corps guy, so what makes YOU any different?" (hmm, maybe I have some ethics and morals and treat my students professionally? But... pretty much, everyone with corps experience is already eliminated from the job by the looks on the faces and body language of the board members and present admins for that very reason. More or less like Groucho Marx asking someone if they've stopped beating their wife.... ) I know what the broad brush of ignorance and the Court of Public Opinion can do, okay? No one likes it, but one has to deal with it as best as possible. And right now, I'll go over two salient bullet points: 1: No one here wants to see any corps in DCI fail as a result of what happened. No one here wants to see DCI as an organization fail for the same reasons. I trust Garfield when he says they're trying and working at this very hard. My worry is that it may still not be enough and they will have to work even harder at this for the next several years. This will not be as easy as one would wish. 2: It may be true that very few corps have had any problems. Not every HS Band program has had rogue directors, most have not, but all of us know of at least several instances of it happening at various locales for decades. Not every priest is a bad egg. The overwhelming majority are clearly not, but there are still existing hard feelings and mistrust. I get it. I could care less what corps have had or not have had any problems. I just care that the eventual truth wins out and that people are treated fairly. The problem there is, Many cases of abuse go unreported and buried. I'm certain I'm not the only one who believes there is likely more that will come out. Only time will tell. DCI would be foolish to think this is the end of it and should prepare for the worst, while hoping for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 (edited) 33 minutes ago, BRASSO said: How school boards respond to things is beyond our control. One hopes the school boards act rationally, but history tells us, some do, but some don't. More to the point however, unless I'm missing something here I've not witnessed a lot of schools around the country acting irrationally and declaring their schools and facilities off limits to all DCI Corps, except in a few in numbers isolated cases so far. First off, the national schools like the monies their typically empty school practice fields, gyms, dorms in the summer generate from rents. Secondly, unless there is a public outcry in their communities not to house Corps, they have hundreds of other things on their plate to deal with. I suppose if schools begin to prevent DCI Corps en masse from their facilities then of course we have a problem.. But lets not go looking to find a solution to a problem that may not currently exist, Stu. Lots of these schools have WGI units, or they secure funds for their School's MB's by sponsoring shows, or they get clinics for their students, or their students participate in DCI, or their MB staff do. Unless I see a public outcry in these communities to their school board's, I would not worry about " presumption of innocence ", as from my current assessment of things in this regard, this seems to be already present with 95- 98% of the schools already re. the DCI Corps . These DCI Corps are in the process of locking down their tour, housing and practice facilities for the 2019 season Stu.... and I'm not hearing of many Corps having problems with their housing and practice facilities accommodations, nor losing many show sponsors, due to the behaviors of a few DCI Corps personnel, Stu. Well, we did have SCV's one camp axed because of complaints about noise from neighbors..... so it's more than just this particular problem. And true, many High Schools derive a lot of educational benefits from the relationship. Edited April 8, 2019 by BigW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 Shake my head at applying presumption of innocence and other trial ideas towards this. not a trial folks, it’s a school deciding if a group should be allowed to use the schools facilities. The board/admins have to decide if the group is worth the risk. Period.... 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyDad Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 (edited) Perception IS reality. This isn’t a court trial. Get real. One bad apple can spoil the whole bunch. That’s the reality. Life ain’t fair. NO school district has the burden of “proving” a corps guilty or presuming anyone innocent before denying them the use of their space. You can leave that amateur lawyering at the door. Some out of district group who pays zero taxes in my school district wants to use my space? With the baggage the activity is carrying today? I’m surprised corps aren’t having a much harder time securing housing. Edited April 8, 2019 by HockeyDad 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 1 hour ago, HockeyDad said: Perception IS reality. This isn’t a court trial. Get real. One bad apple can spoil the whole bunch. That’s the reality. Life ain’t fair. NO school district has the burden of “proving” a corps guilty or presuming anyone innocent before denying them the use of their space. You can leave that amateur lawyering at the door. Some out of district group who pays zero taxes in my school district wants to use my space? With the baggage the activity is carrying today? I’m surprised corps aren’t having a much harder time securing housing. Perception: Interpretation based only on sensory reception. Reality: The quality or state of actually being true with real certanity. Perception can and does affect behavior. But it does NOT define nor change what is real/true. The oughtright false teaching of so-called intellectual professors have convienced many that Perception 'is' Reality. So let's put this to the test and see what we/you believe. There have been dads involved with hockey that have commited crimes against children. The perception then could move to we, especially children, should avoid dads who are involved with hockey until they are proven innocent. Therefore, to be consistent, you must agree that all Hockey Dads should be treated as being guilty until their innocence is proven because that perception makes their guilt actually real/true, correct? Or, is perception not reality? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 8 minutes ago, Stu said: Perception: Interpretation based only on sensory reception. Reality: The quality or state of actually being true with real certanity. Perception can and does affect behavior. But it does NOT define nor change what is real/true. The oughtright false teaching of so-called intellectual professors have convienced many that Perception 'is' Reality. So let's put this to the test and see what we/you believe. There have been dads involved with hockey that have commited crimes against children. The perception then could move to we, especially children, should avoid dads who are involved with hockey until they are proven innocent. Therefore, to be consistent, you must agree that all Hockey Dads should be treated as being guilty until their innocence is proven because that perception makes their guilt actually real/true, correct? Or, is perception not reality? Until you get off the “perceived as guilty” kick you are not going to get it. The school boards are not judging individual corps guilt or innocence. The boards are determining if it is worth the risk to allow them to use the facilities. And it is not the responsibility of the board to go digging into details about the individual corps. Quite frankly the boards have more important things to do with their time. So the board finds out there is a problem within DCI. Not the boards job to check or decide how the individual corps fits into that. So with the limited time the board has they see a problem within DCI and a corps connected to a group under a cloud. Board did not decide Corps is guilty, just not worth the risk given the DCI cloud 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, JimF-LowBari said: Until you get off the “perceived as guilty” kick you are not going to get it. The school boards are not judging individual corps guilt or innocence. The boards are determining if it is worth the risk to allow them to use the facilities. And it is not the responsibility of the board to go digging into details about the individual corps. Quite frankly the boards have more important things to do with their time. So the board finds out there is a problem within DCI. Not the boards job to check or decide how the individual corps fits into that. So with the limited time the board has they see a problem within DCI and a corps connected to a group under a cloud. Board did not decide Corps is guilty, just not worth the risk given the DCI cloud You are making the EXACT case for why the DCI executive office must be solely responsible for the optics of the general activity instead of the individual corps having that responsibility. It wasn't always that way, but it is now and it represents a growing understanding among the past leadership that, despite some opinions to the contrary, there are some functions that are not directly in DCI/Exec's wheelhouse specifically according to the Exec's duties as enumerated in the By-Laws, but that are better to be run centrally non-the-less. So, that's a good thing, right? Worthy of public press, right? So how, exactly, does DCI proclaim that structural change to neophytes or the only-casually-interested in a way that is concise and understandable as positive change? Curious... Edited April 8, 2019 by garfield clarity 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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