What happens when a Corps folds?

[Jeff Ream]

10 hours ago, Stu said:

This is not about copying a name and a product like a poor version knock-off; but about something going through various incarnations or even a rebirth via acquiring the legal name and developing a quality product.

I had the pleasure of seeing the final tour of Rush. They are, of course, Geddy Lee, Alex Lifeson and Neil Peart. Could any other three performers become Rush? Maybe, but likely not. However...

I also recently attended a Blood Sweat and Tears concert. Original band? Nope; not even close. In fact they have been through many incarnations, with over 180 different members, including a different group formed after a two-year absence in the early eighties, and even a newer formed group today. But is the current new incarnation BS&T? Yep! Oh my yep! They own the name and are just as stellar as the first incarnation.

So here is my question for you: Are drum corps more like Rush or Blood Sweat and Tears?

I had the pleasure of seeing every Rush tour since 1980, including that final, bringing me to tears knowing it was over tour in 2015.

 

They could never be Rush in any other configuration, which is why they stopped. They know there'd be backlash. Sure Journey, Styx and others have carried one with member replaced, but are they really those groups? Singing Dennis DeYoung songs with someone else? I got trapped against my will seeing Journey with no Steve Perry...I'll never EVER do that again.

 

I do believe the answer to your questions though is.....yes. There's some of each. Is the current Southwind the Southwind we knew and loved in the 90's and early 2000's? Were the recent brought back to life versions of VK and Dutch Boy the versions we knew and loved? No. On the other hand....trying to be 27th again...I dunno if it would go over well. 

[Jeff Ream]

3 hours ago, Weaklefthand4ever said:

Based on the OP's first post, I did not gather that it was about anything more than just that....use of a name. There were some questions about assets being bought and sold, debt and liquidation of said assets...but the main body of the post to me seemed to be regarding name usage. My answers were directed towards that specific subject. /shrug

But now on to your question. That's an interesting take. Every other year, I go to see Toto at least twice a year (they alternate Europe and US tours.) Is it the same band? Nope, just as in your BS&T (good choice btw) example, the members have changed somewhat. Both Mike Porcaro and Jeff Porcaro have passed away and Bobby Kimball lost his voice 20 years ago. Still amazing? YES. Their 35th anniversary concert was simply incredible. Over 28 years, I have seen Toto nearly 20 times. 

I guess it really comes down to the eye of the beholder, yes? The members in a specific corps change year to year. Thereby the level of talent changes (even if only slightly up or down,) the corps personality changes as it is colored by new members and staff etc. And yet the name stays the same (unless you're the Cadets...Garfield Cadets..Holy Name Cadets, Cadets of Bergen County.) So I would say corps is more like BS&T by default. 

My take on the subject is a little different. Jeff's take on bringing back Westshoremen was a good example. Would it be the same name, same mission and values etc? I would think so as I think there would be stakeholders in place to make sure that happened. Would people who had seen Westshoremen V1.0 think that Westshoreman V 2.0 was the same corps...that's the rub isn't it? Star of Indiana...same question. People have been begging since they marched off the field to bring them back, but some things, IMHO are best left to memory. If they could be brought back with the same financial solidity, level of staff and operational acumen, then I'm all for it. If it's going to be a pig wearing a Star of Indiana shirt then let it stay where it is. Either way, it's a different corps especially so far removed from when they last performed. Drum Corps (like rock bands in your example,) are products of the talent they bring to the field. Spirit will always be Spirit. But there are those who would go so far to say that it's not Spirit without Hunter Moss. 

Interesting discussion Stu. 

Westshore would be different, and i'd make no bones about it.....cause i'd do my damnedest to make sure we were consistent on the field, not the up and down nature of Westshore past

[Weaklefthand4ever]

2 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

Westshore would be different, and i'd make no bones about it.....cause i'd do my damnedest to make sure we were consistent on the field, not the up and down nature of Westshore past

I can absolutely believe that Jeff. You have the experience (for good or bad) to know what happened and why it happened. If more corps would learn from the failures of the past, we would probably see two things 1. Less Corps starting in the first place because they have no solid plan for survival and 2. Surviving corps having plans that look forward more than a season or two.

You also seem smart enough to know where your scope of experience ends and I don't get the feeling you would allow yourself to serve in a capacity that you know you wouldn't be successful at. /shrug

[xandandl]

These Senior corps BITD/DCA discussions which certain posters keep inflicting on the DCI/Junior corps forum like an addiction reminds me ever so much of the little brats who throw a tantrum to get attention and go off running into their room; when no one goes clamoring after the tantrum thrower(s), the brat comes out and throws the tantrum again just to be sure that all the attention is being hogged.  Yup, Senior corps BITD/DCA discussions deserve to be in the DCA forum or the historical corps formum.  Regarding the above posts, probably the DCP Fantasy League, yup.

[Stu]

5 hours ago, Weaklefthand4ever said:

Based on the OP's first post, I did not gather that it was about anything more than just that....use of a name. There were some questions about assets being bought and sold, debt and liquidation of said assets...but the main body of the post to me seemed to be regarding name usage. My answers were directed towards that specific subject. /shrug

But now on to your question. That's an interesting take. Every other year, I go to see Toto at least twice a year (they alternate Europe and US tours.) Is it the same band? Nope, just as in your BS&T (good choice btw) example, the members have changed somewhat. Both Mike Porcaro and Jeff Porcaro have passed away and Bobby Kimball lost his voice 20 years ago. Still amazing? YES. Their 35th anniversary concert was simply incredible. Over 28 years, I have seen Toto nearly 20 times. 

I guess it really comes down to the eye of the beholder, yes? The members in a specific corps change year to year. Thereby the level of talent changes (even if only slightly up or down,) the corps personality changes as it is colored by new members and staff etc. And yet the name stays the same (unless you're the Cadets...Garfield Cadets..Holy Name Cadets, Cadets of Bergen County.) So I would say corps is more like BS&T by default. 

My take on the subject is a little different. Jeff's take on bringing back Westshoremen was a good example. Would it be the same name, same mission and values etc? I would think so as I think there would be stakeholders in place to make sure that happened. Would people who had seen Westshoremen V1.0 think that Westshoreman V 2.0 was the same corps...that's the rub isn't it? Star of Indiana...same question. People have been begging since they marched off the field to bring them back, but some things, IMHO are best left to memory. If they could be brought back with the same financial solidity, level of staff and operational acumen, then I'm all for it. If it's going to be a pig wearing a Star of Indiana shirt then let it stay where it is. Either way, it's a different corps especially so far removed from when they last performed. Drum Corps (like rock bands in your example,) are products of the talent they bring to the field. Spirit will always be Spirit. But there are those who would go so far to say that it's not Spirit without Hunter Moss. 

Interesting discussion Stu. 

 

1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said:

I had the pleasure of seeing every Rush tour since 1980, including that final, bringing me to tears knowing it was over tour in 2015.

 

They could never be Rush in any other configuration, which is why they stopped. They know there'd be backlash. Sure Journey, Styx and others have carried one with member replaced, but are they really those groups? Singing Dennis DeYoung songs with someone else? I got trapped against my will seeing Journey with no Steve Perry...I'll never EVER do that again.

 

I do believe the answer to your questions though is.....yes. There's some of each. Is the current Southwind the Southwind we knew and loved in the 90's and early 2000's? Were the recent brought back to life versions of VK and Dutch Boy the versions we knew and loved? No. On the other hand....trying to be 27th again...I dunno if it would go over well. 

If you are not familiar with it do a little research on the philosophical conundrum called 'The Ship of Theseus'. It deals with the subject of identity just like the following two examples:

1) Nobody and no items from the original Cadets are part of the performing corps today, and they are based in a different location than the original. So are they really the Cadets?

2) When Art Modell took everything except the tradename from Clevland to Baltimore, which group was at that point the real Browns; the Ravens or the new incarnation of Browns in Clevland?

Edited May 11, 2019 by Stu

[Jeff Ream]

12 hours ago, Weaklefthand4ever said:

I can absolutely believe that Jeff. You have the experience (for good or bad) to know what happened and why it happened. If more corps would learn from the failures of the past, we would probably see two things 1. Less Corps starting in the first place because they have no solid plan for survival and 2. Surviving corps having plans that look forward more than a season or two.

You also seem smart enough to know where your scope of experience ends and I don't get the feeling you would allow yourself to serve in a capacity that you know you wouldn't be successful at. /shrug

in any corps....i'd delegate. i'd bring in people i know that know more than I do. I'd expect to be challenged. 

[Jeff Ream]

12 hours ago, xandandl said:

These Senior corps BITD/DCA discussions which certain posters keep inflicting on the DCI/Junior corps forum like an addiction reminds me ever so much of the little brats who throw a tantrum to get attention and go off running into their room; when no one goes clamoring after the tantrum thrower(s), the brat comes out and throws the tantrum again just to be sure that all the attention is being hogged.  Yup, Senior corps BITD/DCA discussions deserve to be in the DCA forum or the historical corps formum.  Regarding the above posts, probably the DCP Fantasy League, yup.

who said I'd bring Westshore back to DCA? Maybe I'd go DCI.

 

ergo, don't assume unless you break the word down by the letters

[HockeyDad]

On 5/10/2019 at 2:01 PM, Jurassic Lancer said:

Hey, I am from Detroit. We have a fake NFL team. 😂

I’m from Michigan. Moved to Green Bay years ago and became a Packers fan. One of the best decisions I ever made. Sometimes you just need to stop banging your head against the wall. 

[Tim K]

On 5/11/2019 at 1:03 PM, Stu said:

 

If you are not familiar with it do a little research on the philosophical conundrum called 'The Ship of Theseus'. It deals with the subject of identity just like the following two examples:

1) Nobody and no items from the original Cadets are part of the performing corps today, and they are based in a different location than the original. So are they really the Cadets?

2) When Art Modell took everything except the tradename from Clevland to Baltimore, which group was at that point the real Browns; the Ravens or the new incarnation of Browns in Clevland?

The geographical location often plays a role in a corps’ identity. There was a huge debate when Cadets left Garfield as to whether they were truly the Cadets. If there had been DCP at the time, every aspect would have been debated. Crossmen moving to Texas did not thrill alums either. 

To bring it closer to home, I love Boston Crusaders due in no small part to the fact they are the only Massachusetts corps who competed in the CYO circuit back in the day that survived in spite of tremendous odds. Spartans would have been around as well, but they were not as strong a presence as they are in OC today.  I applaud those who have worked so hard over the years to keep the BAC alive. I also know very well most kids who march are from Massachusetts, let alone Boston, yet they are still my favorite corps and I feel a connection. Now if in the process headquarters moved to Ft. Lauderdale and became simply The Crusaders, would I feel the same way, even if the same people saved the corps and the same shows were performed? That I’m not so sure. I would still appreciate the hard work involved, and I’d still enjoy the shows, but I would not feel that connection. 

[Slingerland]

On 5/9/2019 at 9:40 PM, BRASSO said:

  Well, if you remain unconvinced by the facts above that the " 27th Lancers " successfully got a court order to remove a Corps from using the name " 27th Lancers " without their permission, go out, file the fee, then start your Corps and name them the " 27th Lancers" as well, and see what happens. Good luck and a toast to you, my friend with your " 27th Lancers ".

There is no US trademark on the name "27th Lancers", only on the foundation.

If the alum corps was operating/chartered in Mass, where 27th was incorporated, then yes, the Bonfiglios would have had legal protection, but there is nothing that would keep someone in Illinois or California or South Carolina from using the name for any business they'd like. Businesses are chartered on state bases, and a business has to specifically seek federal protection for their name, logo, etc  before they can stop others from using the same name.

As to the original question, most states require that any assets of the NPO be distributed to other NPOs on dissolution. If there are creditors seeking restitution, they, of course, would need to be satisfied first, but assuming no debts, any cash or material assets would have to be given to other non-profits.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Slingerland