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23 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

actually "attire" can count on effect sheets. Does the costume fit the theme? Do they actually use parts of the costume in the performance? That could bleed over to other sheets as well.

 

so attire can be a factor that helps.....or hurts. You may want to dig into what effect judges actually look at

Case in point:  Cadets with the Angels & Demons show.  Two separate uniforms, used simultaneously, with drill specifically written to accentuate that choice.  Also, the movement of the angels was different than that of the demons.  This HAD to affect the effect score in a positive way.

I'm not a judge, so I don't actually have PROOF that they scored higher because of those uniforms.  But that uniform/design choice was nearly impossible to ignore for anyone who watched it.

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13 minutes ago, Tommeee said:

Case in point:  Cadets with the Angels & Demons show.  Two separate uniforms, used simultaneously, with drill specifically written to accentuate that choice.  Also, the movement of the angels was different than that of the demons.  This HAD to affect the effect score in a positive way.

I'm not a judge, so I don't actually have PROOF that they scored higher because of those uniforms.  But that uniform/design choice was nearly impossible to ignore for anyone who watched it.

I don't know how that show would have worked any other way. 

Not just in characterization, but the visual drill really made awesome use of the two sides.

I do think in some cases the uniform does little, but I don't think it's fair to say it does nothing at all. More important in some shows than others.

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8 minutes ago, East9900 said:

I don't know how that show would have worked any other way. 

Not just in characterization, but the visual drill really made awesome use of the two sides.

I do think in some cases the uniform does little, but I don't think it's fair to say it does nothing at all. More important in some shows than others.

Sky Ryders were similar in 87 with their West Side Story show.

05 Cadets visuals would not worked nearly as well with the traditional unis.

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1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said:

actually "attire" can count on effect sheets. Does the costume fit the theme? Do they actually use parts of the costume in the performance? That could bleed over to other sheets as well.

 

so attire can be a factor that helps.....or hurts. You may want to dig into what effect judges actually look at

 Well, I seen the judging sheets, and the criteria instructions, and there is no mention at all on asking  any of the judges to award or deduct points on the basis of " does the costume fit the theme ?", ... nor is it mentioned in the training manuals and judges's instructions that Corps are supposed to " actually use parts of the costume in the performance " in order to derive any awarding of point credits.  That said, my DCI judging manual/ instructions to judges I've read is now 11 years old. So could you perhaps download this page that covers this in the most recent Judging Manual ? , as that would help me ( and perhaps others ) better understand how the judging has changed since 2008 and where apparently now the attire and headgear ( and presumably the absence of headgear ) is now judged for point gain or loss  on the General Effect sheets ( and how attire and headgear choices could even apparently " bleed over " into Brass, Percussion, Guard captions as well, you say ). Thanks. Jeff.

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2 hours ago, Tommeee said:

Case in point:  Cadets with the Angels & Demons show.  Two separate uniforms, used simultaneously, with drill specifically written to accentuate that choice.  Also, the movement of the angels was different than that of the demons.  This HAD to affect the effect score in a positive way.

I'm not a judge, so I don't actually have PROOF that they scored higher because of those uniforms.  But that uniform/design choice was nearly impossible to ignore for anyone who watched it.

  Boston in 2013 changed uniforms completely in mid show and even ( as Jeff Ream says is factored in ) used the costumes in the performance effectively by completely changing the attire Corps costumes and colors with that in the performance.  There was no effect whatsoever however on their scores/ placements with that attire/ headgear choices,... as near as we can tell anyway..

 As for the Cadets, they have finished in 1st place and in 19th place with virtually identical attire & headgear in both cases, and that fashion choice and headgear choice had no bearing whatsoever on either that 1st place finish nor that 19th place finish for them, imo. As for Cadets title in 2011, its mere speculation that they would not have been able to win their Title that season without the duality of the attire. The theme was about duality, ( perfect for duality attire ) so the attire change DID perhaps assist with that GE visual caption more than if they had utilized their " onsies ", and attempted to win it with those. I  grant that possibility as a matter of fact.  However, placing 1st in GE Music #1... 1st in GE Music #2,....2nd in Guard,.... 2nd in Brass, ....1st in Music Ensemble,... likely were the principal reasons they won in 2011, imo... not the attire/headgear choice that season. But... who knows.

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2 hours ago, 84BDsop said:

Sky Ryders were similar in 87 with their West Side Story show.

05 Cadets visuals would not worked nearly as well with the traditional unis.

yeah Sky Ryders example is huge!

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34 minutes ago, BRASSO said:

  Boston in 2013 changed uniforms completely in mid show and even completely changed the attire Corps colors with that in the performance.  There was no effect whatsoever on their scores/ placements with that attire/ headgear choices,... as near as we can tell anyway..

 As for the Cadets, they have finished in 1st place and in 19th place with virtually identical attire & headgear in both cases

eh - I could make the argument than in "modern" times they have YET to win a show in the traditional M&G

2005 was the altered uniforms

2011 were the two angel/demon versions

2007 - they were in M&G and I personally thought they SHOULD have won

Again - no evidence that a different uniform would have changed 2007 but by then the organization was beginning to feel the M&G was holding them back as dance & movement/staging started its mighty entrance

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17 minutes ago, George Dixon said:

eh - I could make the argument than in "modern" times they have YET to win a show in the traditional M&G

2005 was the altered uniforms

2011 were the two angel/demon versions

2007 - they were in M&G and I personally thought they SHOULD have won

Again - no evidence that a different uniform would have changed 2007 but by then the organization was beginning to feel the M&G was holding them back as dance & movement/staging started its mighty entrance

 The highest Finals placement the Cadets have had the last decade have been in their traditional M & G's however, George . I don't state that as the reason they should go back to them,  as in todays modern DCI thats probably not a wise thing to do. But the recent attire and headgear choices of these Corps... up and down the entire DCI placement ranks... has not effected these Corps placements at all, ...as near as I can tell anyway. The best " theme specific " attire and headgear in 2017 just might've been Academy, imo... or one of them. They dropped out of Finals. Thats because the show design and execution captions were the end all and the be all among their peer groups... and their attire and headgear choices was a completely non factor in their placement that season. ( and as it should be, imo )

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5 minutes ago, BRASSO said:

 The highest Finals placement the Cadets have had the last decade have been in their traditional M & G's however, George . I don't state that as the reason they should go back to them,  as in todays modern DCI thats probably not a wise thing to do. But the recent attire and headgear choices of these Corps... up and down the entire DCI placement ranks... has not effected these Corps placements at all, ...as near as I can tell anyway.

I'm not sure I understand - they won in 2011 in a non traditional... 

I also think, for example, Coats for Downside Up and SCV last year both benefited from their attire

Certainly hard to prove though - so I would say, a matter of conjecture at best :)

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20 minutes ago, George Dixon said:

I'm not sure I understand - they won in 2011 in a non traditional... 

 

 Yes and No regarding whether it was " traditional " or not. It was not as" traditional" as far as previous Cadets uniforms were concerned, but the Corps Colors were the traditional M&G they won that 2011 Title in. The Cadets won the San Antonio Regional over all Corps on 7/18/2015. Hopkins soon after that San Antonio Regional changed the uniforms, colors, went to the All blacks, and 3 weeks later unfortunately the Cadets finished out of the medals at 4th...( and have not medaled since ). I'm not saying the Hopkins decision to chuck the 80 year iconic Corps Colors was the reason for the Corps slippage, as that would nullify what I've been saying all along, ie.. that  Corps attire and headgear choices are a non factor in placements. People do associate the Cadets recent placement slippage to attire/ headgear, Corps Colors choices by the Cadets. I'm sure we've all heard this here too. But I do not subscribe to that.. Other factors account for this, imo.

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