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Reply to East9900 Posted 6/6/3019

That left shoulder thing that goes into the blue sleeve seems similar to what Blue Devils have done with their uniforms.

I have to say, some of the uniform designs I like but this has to be a huge expense for each corps for the sake of having some particular look to fit with the theme of a show.

I'm sure this has been hashed over many times, but I still prefer a single uniform as part of the identity of a corps like SCV's red jacket and white pants, Madison's Scout uniform, The Cadets/Garfield cream, gold and maroon, Cavaliers green, etc.

Call me old school, but I think a lot of this is Michael Cesario's doing as a Visual designer and consultant.

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Re Academy (and Colts, for that matter): yeah, sure, whatever. On the one hand they are "out there" because they are not old school. On the other, they are smack in the middle of today's bell curve, completely interchangeable with just about any other corps. In fact, corps directors ought to start swapping costumes around with each other in order to save costs, because I guarantee there is a 2020 corps out there that will need exactly what Academy is wearing this year, and they won't "look like Academy" when they wear it next year.

Costuming seems to have become a factor that works only in the margins. It's hard to imagine Bluecoats performing "Downside Up" in their old Canton Police-inspired unis and white buckets on their heads. The programming was beatnik groovy, the hip-hugger/mock-turtle look carried the mood perfectly, and probably tipped the GE scales ever so slightly to make the difference.

On the other hand, it's not that hard to imagine SCV performing "Babylon" in their classic green, red and Aussies. Their vaguely dystopian monochrome certainly didn't hurt, but to my casual-fan eyes they weren't as completely wedded to the program idea as Bloo's sparkly spandex was in 2016.

tl;dr: When it works, it probably burnishes the GE a bit. When it doesn't, it's probably immaterial. Basic design competence and good taste assumed, there's little downside. So if you're scrapping for 0.2 points on Friday night, why not?

Edited by 2muchcoffeeman
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 Drum Corps currently has no caption for " attire " ( some sports competitions do ). So basically, there is little to be gained or lost on any of the score sheets for " attire worn ". Judges are not even to account for " attire " on even the GE Visual sheets. There are dozens of other things the judges will be evaluating on their particular captions, besides the attire worn in competition. As such, Corps are well served to look for a myriad of other ways to find the extra  2-- 3 tenths for themselves at Championships, imo.  If attire was factored into scoring, we'd see Corps altering the attire throughout the season, as much as they alter other aspects of their show. But typically speaking, Corps keep their attire for the entire season. The only major attire change I recall mid season was the Cadets in 2015. They won the San Antonio Regionals, topping all Corps there. They then scrapped their 80 year traditional colors, unis, for an all black uniform and wound up 4th at Finals 3 weeks later, and have never placed in the top 3 at any Regionals or FInals since. For decades, the Cadets have placed high and low in their traditional attire, and in neither case did the attire have anything at all to do with that placement/score, imo. 

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36 minutes ago, 2muchcoffeeman said:

 corps directors ought to start swapping costumes around with each other in order to save costs, .

 

The Battalion were provided the 2015 Boston Crusaders uniforms for the Battalion marchers to wear for 2016.. I like this Corps. But its clear to me that the change to the Boston Crusaders uniforms had no effect either up or down in Battalion's scores/ placements from that attire and shako decision..,..once more illustrating that what you have on your head or on your lower torso is pretty much irrelevant to a Corps scores/ placements.

Edited by BRASSO

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15 minutes ago, BRASSO said:

 Drum Corps currently has no caption for " attire " 

Right. Which only underscores my point -- namely, that effective costuming works only in the margins. When your look not only fits, but actively advances, your program idea -- again, see Bloo '16 -- then it can only help you in those tiebreaker moments when you have to split a GE hair between Corps A and Corps B. The arms race in costuming is a ton of effort and cost in pursuit of a tenth of a point. I suspect it's the least efficient competitive lever a designer can pull.

Costuming might be more effective in the longer view. The most powerful recruitment tool for next season is the show you put on the field this season. Don't underestimate the allure that the look of a corps has on a 19-year-old mind. This season, on the field, the uniform probably isn't moving your needle much. In November when audition reservations start coming in, the uniform probably is having a greater effect on your competitive standing.

. . . But saying that a uniform is "pretty much irrelevant" is taking it a bit too far the other way, imo. If that were true, all corps would wear gym shorts and T shirts and save boatloads of money.

Edited by 2muchcoffeeman
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1 hour ago, East9900 said:

As for the "bridgework".... I get it, but it seems a bit busy. Reminds me a lot of Cadets last year.

Yup, and it will make their drill forms fracture, just like Cadets. This will be somewhat less, due to the larger areas of solid white, but expect the upper bodies to blur and make spacing appear fuzzy.

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52 minutes ago, 2muchcoffeeman said:

.

. . . But saying that a uniform is "pretty much irrelevant" is taking it a bit too far the other way, imo. If that were true, all corps would wear gym shorts and T shirts and save boatloads of money.

 I would say that any attire that allows marchers to move better on the field  might give them a few tenths over a competitor with more restrictive attire by comparison. But the style worn is likely a non factor in their scores. The modern Guards have a lot to do with a Corps GE and Visual scores. Its their equipment work, dance, show design, etc that is the end all, and be all in their scores too, imo. I thought Phantom Regiment ( for example ) has had outstanding Guard attire some years, really befitting their chosen theme that season exceedingly well, imo...  but to no avail at all on their Guard scores, nor on their overall scores for themselves those years however..

  " All Corps " in any year have never worn the same attire and headgear. As a matter of fact a compelling case can be made that there was far more diversity in attire and headgear worn BITD than today in DCI.. Kilties, Troopers, Muchachos, Anaheim Kingsmen, Guardsmen,  Cavaliers, Cadets,  Bridgemen, Freelancers, Velvet Knights, etc were radically different stylistically from one another in attire and headgear.  Indeed, the Velvet Knights could have" worn gym shots and t shirts" and placed exactly where they did with V shape attire on the cymbals players, 2 piece bikini on Guard,  and multi colored pajamas, red sneakers, and red baseball caps on the marchers. Blue Stars placed 2nd in DCI overall with the Guard in white hot pants one year. Cadets wore similar white hot pants in the Guard one year and failed to make Finals. Thats because the attire and headgear had virtually nothing at all to do with these Corps scores/ placements, imo. It didn't then, and its likely that attire and headgear will have no effect on the scores and placements this summer either, imo.

Edited by BRASSO

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28 minutes ago, BRASSO said:

The Battalion were provided the 2015 Boston Crusaders uniforms for the Battalion marchers to wear for 2016.. I like this Corps. But its clear to me that the change to the Boston Crusaders uniforms had no effect either up or down in Battalion's scores/ placements from that attire and shako decision..,..once more illustrating that what you have on your head or on your lower torso is pretty much irrelevant to a Corps scores/ placements.

This “scientific analysis” you have shown here has no basis in fact.  It is merely your opinion.  

There is simply no way to prove, definitively, that the uniform/costume has any effect (or no effect) on scoring.  

I imagine this will continue to be debated for many years to come.  But nobody can really provide real proof.

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37 minutes ago, BRASSO said:

 As a matter of fact a compelling case can be made that there was far more diversity in attire worn BITD than today. Kilties, Troopers, Muchachos, Anaheim Kingsmen, Cadets,  Bridgemen, Freelancers, Velvet Knights, etc were radically different stylistically from one another in attire and headgear. Velvet Knights could have worn gym shots and t shirts and placed exactly where they did with gym shots on the cymbals players and red sneakers on the marchers.

not much of an argument from me on this point. I tend to agree that the difference between Bridgemen and Troopers circa 1979 was miles wider than the difference between Academy and Colts circa 2019. Also agree that the wider differences of 1979 probably had the same effect on the competitive standing of Bridgemen and Troopers as they will on Academy and Colts in 2019 -- which is to say, minimal except in those margin cases where, when it is precisely calibrated to resonate with the show design, the look provides just that crucial bit of extra wind in the sails in the GE column.

But still, all of that is not the same as saying costuming is no factor at all. If it truly had zero importance to the success of a corps -- either at tonight's show or November's audition camps --  every corps would drop costuming entirely and spend all that saved money on juggling otters on unicycles or something.

Edited by 2muchcoffeeman
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41 minutes ago, Tommeee said:

This “scientific analysis” you have shown here has no basis in fact.  It is merely your opinion.  

 

 True... and of course, its opinion.  We only know for certain that judges are not instructed to judge attire. Not only that, DCI does not train their judges on being equipped to adjudicate " Superior  fashion ", ... " Adequate fashion".... nor " Subpar fashion". This much transcends opinion. Its a fact, ie,  no training in it.

 Besides, have you seen these judges attire they wear off the field ? ( and sometimes on the field when judging.. whoa.. one female judge immediately comes to mind ). Not sure you'd want these DCI judges to become the arbiters of what is good attire and subpar attire and award or deduct points for such in these judged competitions. :bigsmile:

Edited by BRASSO
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