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Let's Play A Game - You Can Only Go Forward


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5 hours ago, Stu said:

I am not advocating going backwards with G bugles, so a17 please don't think that is what I mean. But there was a time where each corps had their own very unique distinct sound. Within seconds of listening to a recording anyone could pinpoint "that is Madison" or "that is Regiment" or "that is SCV". One was Dark, another was Bright, one was Raspy, another was Loud, and yet another was Controlled... All were distict identies to each corps. However, the current sound from corps to corps is very homogenized; likely due to the staff jumping from corps to corps combined with like minded interp of sheet criteria.

I do agree that the range of difference is less than long ago, but IMO there is still a difference. Staff movement plays a part, for sure, as does staff education. Back in the day a lot of staff were not college-trained musicians. They came up through drum corps, and where they lived guided where they marched and the type of training they received and the corps they marched with.

 

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6 hours ago, Stu said:

That is why when two are adjudicating the same caption with the same sheets adding together and dividing by two yields a more fair score. But the ultimate  "goal" of the training and experience is to get the exact same rating and exact same ranking from both judges.

no, it's not. I'll say it louder:

 

THE GOAL IS FOR EVERY JUDGE TO JUDGE THEIR SHEET ONLY AND TO RANK AND RATE AS THEY SEE IT.

And every judging coordinator will back their call unless there's a huge discrepancy between the commentary and the number

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On 6/6/2019 at 9:59 PM, MikeD said:

Having said that, I do think that having those type of folks create tapes and talk about how the shows/performance appear to them is absolutely a great idea, but not as part of the adjudication process.

And I think maybe that's the balance I was hoping to have someone finally flesh out. If I add some context to Stu's idea of making judging a little less "sterile" and then also consider what Jeff and several others have mentioned regarding that judging has to be consistent, the response above meets right in the middle. This is supposed to be about precision AND entertainment after all. In theory (yes, I know that's a dangerous thing...,) those tapes/scores/etc SHOULD have a positive impact on GE. If I am watching the show and I truly can't follow what the #### is going on musically and visually, isn't that general effect in a nutshell? 

I wouldn't be comfortable with someone from the outside judging without training, but I don't think that's what was said. Hell, I wouldn't want to judge a line without a TON of training and I marched corps just like 99% of the people here. But I do like the idea of someone who isn't watching the show from the technical aspect of GE, giving feedback on it. Maybe not a score....but feedback would be awesome.  

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10 hours ago, Fran Haring said:

Heh... the DCA season opener in recent years has been an evaluation format... the judges give the corps input, but no scores... and the fans are given the chance to vote for their favorite corps through an app. 

I was the announcer at this show, and had access to the running vote tally... and, gotta be honest here, some fans cast their votes before even seeing any of the corps. LOL. 

And there in lies the danger of it right? It's fine to have a "fan favorite" caption that has no effect on placement. IMHO though, it's kind of a "everyone gets a trophy" mentality in a way. I feel like GE now isn't geared towards entertainment as much and would like to see that change. Unfortunately, you can't depend on the general public to actually follow rules, even if it is just an app. 

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2 hours ago, Weaklefthand4ever said:

And there in lies the danger of it right? It's fine to have a "fan favorite" caption that has no effect on placement. IMHO though, it's kind of a "everyone gets a trophy" mentality in a way. I feel like GE now isn't geared towards entertainment as much and would like to see that change. Unfortunately, you can't depend on the general public to actually follow rules, even if it is just an app. 

Absolutely agree. 

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I'd like to have EVERY competition, World and Open Class, broadcasted on a Drum Corps channel with the ability to watch shows later if we can't catch them live, or they are running concurrently. Also, it would be at a fair price, with good quality sound and video.

Edited by kkrepps
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My suggestion is that instead of the faculty/instructors/techs getting paid to pad their resume's using kids in order to garner endorsements from the lobbyists and mfgrs., the staff and faculty should pay the mms..............................................................................just like the NCAA is gearing towards with the colleges sharing the broadcast royalties with the players! The faculties and staff should feel an honor for the privilege to teach these wonderful mms, not use them as a resource source.

That would definitely change the game outside of Concord, Calif and Bloomington, Ind.

Edited by xandandl
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17 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

no, it's not. I'll say it louder:

 

THE GOAL IS FOR EVERY JUDGE TO JUDGE THEIR SHEET ONLY AND TO RANK AND RATE AS THEY SEE IT.

And every judging coordinator will back their call unless there's a huge discrepancy between the commentary and the number

So.... if all but one established Music GE judges are commenting in the same manner ("This music conveys the show design GE very well, is wonderfully dark, balanced, controlled dynamics, not overbearingly FFF") ; all but one scoring the corps in the same manner (say 0.2 of each other as scores increase during the season), and all but one is ranking the corps in the same manner (placing the corps 1st in Music GE) It is actually ok, fine, acceptable, encouraged, and supported for that other Music GE judge to have a vastly different take as long as the comments are backed up such as  ("The GE here is supposed to be Hot Jazz, it should be bright, sort of raspy, 8va tpts, improv solos, occasional FFF moments"); along with scoring the corps well below the other judges all season  and ranking the corps 5th in Music GE.  With that in mind, every judging coordinator will back that judge's call as long as that judge can back up the comments, score, and ranking. Correct?

Or.... would the sanctioning body seek to train all judges to view excellent Music GE as wonderfully dark, balanced, controlled dynamics, not overbearingly FFF (ie clones in GE interp); and if the rogue judge did not conform to that interp that judge would be told bye-bye?

Edited by Stu
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12 hours ago, Stu said:

So.... if all but one established Music GE judges are commenting in the same manner ("This music conveys the show design GE very well, is wonderfully dark, balanced, controlled dynamics, not overbearingly FFF") ; all but one scoring the corps in the same manner (say 0.2 of each other as scores increase during the season), and all but one is ranking the corps in the same manner (placing the corps 1st in Music GE) It is actually ok, fine, acceptable, encouraged, and supported for that other Music GE judge to have a vastly different take as long as the comments are backed up such as  ("The GE here is supposed to be Hot Jazz, it should be bright, sort of raspy, 8va tpts, improv solos, occasional FFF moments"); along with scoring the corps well below the other judges all season  and ranking the corps 5th in Music GE.  With that in mind, every judging coordinator will back that judge's call as long as that judge can back up the comments, score, and ranking. Correct?

Or.... would the sanctioning body seek to train all judges to view excellent Music GE as wonderfully dark, balanced, controlled dynamics, not overbearingly FFF (ie clones in GE interp); and if the rogue judge did not conform to that interp that judge would be told bye-bye?

the coordinators and caption heads watch for trends. with competition suite, they can go in and listen to a recording from anywhere. if they see a disturbing score, or get a communication from a corps concerning a score/recording, they're doing some research. Listening to the recording. getting feedback from the corps. talking to the judge themselves. 

 

last year....Boston won Thursday and Friday in guard....but not Saturday. well now, odd? correct? Maybe, not a guard expert. Some people say yes, some people say no. i'm sure the person in charge of the guard sheet asked some questions.

 

however after that research, if the recording backs up the score as well as the judge can account for their actions, yeah they will get backed up.

Now it could affect end of the year assignments.....but you have seen stuff like this all the time. the year Crown won...percussion was scoring in the 6th range consistently all year when up against everyone. Semis...boom up to 4th, beating corps they lost to all year, and thus creating a far bigger spread against BD than there had been? In fact changing the results from the night before? Think that judge wasn't grilled that night? ( i can't remember the name, but i honestly don't remember it being a name that i have heard of since).

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

the coordinators and caption heads watch for trends. with competition suite, they can go in and listen to a recording from anywhere. if they see a disturbing score, or get a communication from a corps concerning a score/recording, they're doing some research. Listening to the recording. getting feedback from the corps. talking to the judge themselves. 

 

last year....Boston won Thursday and Friday in guard....but not Saturday. well now, odd? correct? Maybe, not a guard expert. Some people say yes, some people say no. i'm sure the person in charge of the guard sheet asked some questions.

 

however after that research, if the recording backs up the score as well as the judge can account for their actions, yeah they will get backed up.

Now it could affect end of the year assignments.....but you have seen stuff like this all the time. the year Crown won...percussion was scoring in the 6th range consistently all year when up against everyone. Semis...boom up to 4th, beating corps they lost to all year, and thus creating a far bigger spread against BD than there had been? In fact changing the results from the night before? Think that judge wasn't grilled that night? ( I can't remember the name, but i honestly don't remember it being a name that i have heard of since).

Had to read it all, but the last line, the one I put in bold, actually answers my question.

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