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North Canton, OH - Saturday, June 22, 2019


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9 hours ago, cfirwin3 said:

For the sake of discussion...

Slotting means 2 different things to different people.

A. Slotting means (to most) the application of a placement prior to adjudication (this is the misunderstood, nefarious definition... that actually isn't true).

B. Slotting ACTUALLY means... drum roll...

numbers management.

Slotting is merely the unavoidable practice of comparison as numbers are being assigned.  It's why we can't really compare (faithfully) numbers between different shows on the same night.  And it's why scores will occasionally bounce a significant value from one night to the next while the placement order stays the same (especially when a high placing group takes an early performance time in a lineup).

 

Okay...

Now fight!

It’s both. To say that DCI doesn’t walk into the first show and not have a preset idea of how the general placements should be is naive. They may be correct, but it’s still reality.

What I don’t like is the fact that the DCI scoring system virtually guarantees that Mandarins, for example, cannot win a medal. If you are the Kansas City Chiefs, you kick off every game with the score tied at zero, and whichever team scores more points that night, wins. The chiefs could be 0-13 heading into that game but they can still win.

That’s not possible in DCI. Every corps but one starts with a handicap,and the way judging works, it is not logistically possible for them to jump 10 scoring points, and place over the corps ahead of them. 

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7 hours ago, MikeRapp said:

It’s both. To say that DCI doesn’t walk into the first show and not have a preset idea of how the general placements should be is naive. They may be correct, but it’s still reality.

What I don’t like is the fact that the DCI scoring system virtually guarantees that Mandarins, for example, cannot win a medal. If you are the Kansas City Chiefs, you kick off every game with the score tied at zero, and whichever team scores more points that night, wins. The chiefs could be 0-13 heading into that game but they can still win.

That’s not possible in DCI. Every corps but one starts with a handicap,and the way judging works, it is not logistically possible for them to jump 10 scoring points, and place over the corps ahead of them. 

Name a Mandarins show that is worthy of a medal (in your opinion).

Edit:  that's not meant as a snide remark.  Just demonstrating that this line of thinking should have quite a lot of evidence to support it... A big list of 12-7th place shows that are arguably 3-1st place shows (by the adjudication criteria).  It's not really a defensible assertion when you consider the need for evidence.

Edited by cfirwin3
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12 hours ago, queenanne_1536 said:

I just think people get so carried away with Boston. Yes, their rise was tremendous and fun (they were my 2nd favorite in both 2017 and 2018), but their designers did not give them a show that is on the level of the other 5. 

I love the corps, yada, yada.  I'm also fully prepared to dish out criticism when it's called for.  The corps hired this staff... and with little to no oversight of what they produce.  They were given a free hand.  If Boston's management is not calling them out when they don't dig as deeply as the competition, then WHO WILL?????  

I love the staff... go way back with some of them...  and enjoy the energy they've brought. 

Wicked Games was an excellent show.  Total turnaround for Boston.  The GE was there. S. O. S. had many great qualities, but felt like the designers were resting on their GE laurels, instead of charging into new territory.  It did not lead the activity, like last year's medalists did.  Goliath is another great show.  Total step up from a technical standpoint.  There was obviously a lot of thought and work that went into this production.  However, there is not the level of artistic risk, and GE variety, that this set of designers is capable of.  

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13 hours ago, DCIat14 said:

I'm sure the members reading this really appreciate your constantly putting them down. I've said it many times - from the lowest scoring corps to the winning, every single member is out there putting their heart & soul on the field.  The constant bashing of corps & their members is just sad.  Members have friends, classmates, & previous corpsmates in those other corps & are *GASP* rooting them on.  Take a lesson out of their book.   

I don't see @queenanne_1536as putting down the corps or members.  She/he's more calling out the staff and designers.  Everyone appreciates what the MMs are doing, and everyone (who's not a bitter competitor) is rooting for them.  No need for her/him to quibble about that.  There is nothing wrong with her/him calling things as she/he sees it.  It's being done respectfully, even if it's not what certain homers want to hear.  The judges are doing this every night.  

Edited by Ediker
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2 hours ago, MikeRapp said:

What I don’t like is the fact that the DCI scoring system virtually guarantees that Mandarins, for example, cannot win a medal. If you are the Kansas City Chiefs, you kick off every game with the score tied at zero, and whichever team scores more points that night, wins. The chiefs could be 0-13 heading into that game but they can still win.

That’s not possible in DCI. Every corps but one starts with a handicap,and the way judging works, it is not logistically possible for them to jump 10 scoring points, and place over the corps ahead of them. 

In football, one scores by running, passing, and kicking.  It's way, way, more complex in DCI.  Football is scored on things that happen immediately, unpredictably, and moment to moment.  Drum corps is scored on many layers of things, some of which develop over many months, and change very slowly.  

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1 minute ago, Ediker said:

In football, one scores by running, passing, and kicking.  It's way, way, more complex in DCI.  Football is scored on things that happen immediately, unpredictably, and moment to moment.  Drum corps is scored on many layers of things, some of which develop over many months, and change very slowly.  

Yup. Football is for the most part objective. There might be some questionable calls sometimes but most people are going to see the same thing when they look at it. The same can't be said for design or effect of a show.

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3 minutes ago, Brass Lover said:

Yup. Football is for the most part objective. There might be some questionable calls sometimes but most people are going to see the same thing when they look at it. The same can't be said for design or effect of a show.

Also, football is a game... both competitors are on the field trying to score points.  Drum corps is more a demonstration of design and proficiency, with only one team on the field at a time.  

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3 minutes ago, Ediker said:

Also, football is a game... both competitors are on the field trying to score points.  Drum corps is more a demonstration of design and proficiency, with only one team on the field at a time.  

I dunno with the field usage of some of the shows this year we could definitely have two corps on the field at the same time. Think of the efficiency!

Edited by Brass Lover
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13 hours ago, cfirwin3 said:

I think that SHOULD be right, but the inside subcaption scores have Boston contending with Bluecoats outside of the guard category.  If that's true then I don't think that it pulls BAC up... I think it pulls Bloo and maybe Crown downward away from the other 3.

Agreed. out west the Cavaliers are competing and beating both BD and SCV in some captions/sub captions as well. Some might say that’s even more impressive.

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