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North Canton, OH - Saturday, June 22, 2019


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9 minutes ago, Ediker said:

Also, football is a game... both competitors are on the field trying to score points.  Drum corps is more a demonstration of design and proficiency, with only one team on the field at a time.  

Thanks! I never knew that until just now. 

 

:sarcasm:

Edited by Barneveld
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16 hours ago, cfirwin3 said:

For the sake of discussion...

Slotting means 2 different things to different people.

A. Slotting means (to most) the application of a placement prior to adjudication (this is the misunderstood, nefarious definition... that actually isn't true).

B. Slotting ACTUALLY means... drum roll...

numbers management.

Slotting is merely the unavoidable practice of comparison as numbers are being assigned. 

Exactly. I am not talking about slotting A. I’m talking about B and design. 

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15 hours ago, N.E. Brigand said:

Anyway, I personally would have put Boston on top tonight.

Bluecoats simultaneously move and play very little. Yes, that strategy worked out very well for SCV last year and BD the year before, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

Still, all the shows were clearly rough drafts with much to be filled in.

After watching and re-watching all these shows over the past several days, Boston is my favorite (even above SCV). But, I’ve equated Corps A playing and moving more than Corps B, as Corps A being better and having a more difficult show for a long time. That’s just not how the sheets work. What gets rewarded are shows like SCV, Bloo, Cavies, BD and Crown have this year. It’s unfortunate, but it is what it is and if you want to win or medal you have to play the game.

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14 hours ago, Stu said:

The Minnesota Twins and the Atlanta Braves both started the 1991 MLB season in last place. By the end of that season they were both in the World Series, and the Twins became the Champions.

So, if Phantom Regiment and Madison Scouts can do that sort of thing this year, fight it out for 1st and 2nd on Finals night, I will say there is no early season numbers management trend slotting within DCI. Otherwise early season trend slotting, which in turn directly impacts subjective ranking for the rest of the season, is a very real occurance in DCI.

That is a really bad analogy. Trying to win in any pro sport isn’t even comparable to drum corps in any way. Both Phantom Regiment and Madison Scouts will likely be sitting on the sidelines on Saturday night. It has nothing to do with slotting. The Blue Stars conceivably started in 12th place last year (as both Regiment and Crossmen beat them out of the gate). I never for one second though Regiment or Crossmen would be a head of Blue Stars at finals, because the Blue Stars from the get go had a much better design and more room to go. I said so in the Blue Stars 2018 thread. I even said after the first video I saw before the season started that it was a top 8 show.  They finished 8th. All because of design.  Regiment and Madison won’t because they don’t have the design. It’s that simple.

Design can take you further or it can destroy you. In 2016, a more talent Cadets corps lost to a less talented Cavaliers corps because of design. In 2017, a more talent Cadets corps lost to a LIKELY less talented Boston Crusaders corps because of design. In 2017, a more talent Bluecoats corps lost to a less talented Cavaliers corps because of design. When a corps is getting positive response to their design from the judges, it builds morale, and as morale is boosted execution is boosted, and as execution is boosted competitive results are boosted. Then repeat and repeat and repeat. It’s a snowball effect, and it has the opposite effect if the design is worse than your peers.

You have to start with a design that is better than the corps above you if you want a shot at moving up. We’ve seen 9 of the top 12 last year. ALL have better designs then Regiment, and Blue knights likely do too. That’s why Regiment won’t move up. Nothing to do with slotting and everything to do with design.

 

Edited by queenanne_1536
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9 hours ago, Liahona said:

Good for you.  It's awesome that you are such a expert in these things.  I guess the season is over now. I just have one question. Am I going to have to listen to you repeat yourself all season on this point or are you now done insulting the corps? I have a feeling it is the former and not the later.

Maybe Boston should change their narrative and execute Anne Boleyn instead of David slaying the Giant.

I have never insulted the corps. I have never slammed their show for anything. I am stating my opinion on where I think they will finish competitively. That’s all. I would say it to the face of any of their staff members.

Edited by queenanne_1536
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16 hours ago, N.E. Brigand said:

2 hours ago, cfirwin3 said:

Where's kevingamin?

Once he got to the stands, he was sitting, coindentally, just a few spots over from me.

With my wife, and I apologise for not properly introducing the two of you.

posted from the DrumScorps app

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4 hours ago, Ediker said:

I love the corps, yada, yada.  I'm also fully prepared to dish out criticism when it's called for.  The corps hired this staff... and with little to no oversight of what they produce.  They were given a free hand.  If Boston's management is not calling them out when they don't dig as deeply as the competition, then WHO WILL?????  

I love the staff... go way back with some of them...  and enjoy the energy they've brought. 

Wicked Games was an excellent show.  Total turnaround for Boston.  The GE was there. S. O. S. had many great qualities, but felt like the designers were resting on their GE laurels, instead of charging into new territory.  It did not lead the activity, like last year's medalists did.  Goliath is another great show.  Total step up from a technical standpoint.  There was obviously a lot of thought and work that went into this production.  However, there is not the level of artistic risk, and GE variety, that this set of designers is capable of.  

Exactly. I HATE the way shows are scored the way they are today. I loved Babylon. I loved everything about it. I’m so glad it won. But, in some ways, I loved SOS even more, because I saw readable, expansive, and fast drill. Wonderful guard work. Great and melodic music. The ending was clever and beautiful. After Vanguard it was my second favorite show. Same can be said for 2017. Likely, this year Boston will have my favorite show as well. I like what Boston is doing. I love what Boston is doing. If they are doing what they are doing to purely entertain, they are winning. If they are doing what they are doing to move up in the rankings, then they are not winning.

I’m not insulting the corps. Good God, I wish they would win. I think it would actually help DCI if they did, because I feel we’ve gotten away from entertainment for the sake of showing technical prowess and demand over musicality and entertainment. But, after years and years of being disappointed and not understanding for the life of me why BD always won (and not feeling they should have) I started talking to people who understand how judging works way more than I (because I clearly had no clue), including friends and former staff members who are judges. I have a greater understanding today about design and the judging sheets, and based on the criteria BD wins because they play to those sheets better than anyone else, consistently. I looks like Vanguard has figured it out to.

At the end of the day, it’s simple - I think the other 5 are playing more to the judges than BAC is. What’s right? What’s wrong? Depends on what you want.

Edited by queenanne_1536
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4 hours ago, 2muchcoffeeman said:

Indeed, the GE sheets essentially require the judges to think back to the previous year. There's no way you can evaluate originality and creativity without a multi-year perspective.

I dont agree with this. Every year, every corps should be evaluated purely on its own merit.

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