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DrumScorps

North Canton, OH - Saturday, June 22, 2019

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6 minutes ago, skevinp said:

Wouldn't that be true of calling a runner out or safe at first base?

Machines rule the world in his philosophy.  But somehow, people didn't make these machines and set the standard of measurement for them.

Inexplicable.

Edited by cfirwin3

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1 minute ago, skevinp said:

Which it won't truly be until directors can kick dust on the judges.  😄

 

Holy Moly that would be a gas!!!!

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3 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

Machines rule the world in his philosophy.  But somehow, people didn't make these machines and set the standard of measurment for them.

Inexplicable.

In objective evaluation, rulers, watches, and other direct measurable tools.must be used. Yes. Otherwise it is mere observed opinion.

Edited by Stu
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26 minutes ago, skevinp said:

Wouldn't that be true of calling a runner out or safe at first base?

Umpiring is totally subjective.

Famous umpire Bill Klem was slow making a call, and one of the players asked if the runner was safe or not. Klem said..."It ain't nothin' till I call it.""

Another time he was later shown a picture of a blown call he had made, and he said "Gentleman, he was out because I said he was out." 

 

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3 minutes ago, Stu said:

In objective evaluation, rulers, watches, and other direct measurable tools.must be used. Yes. Otherwise it is mere observed opinion.

That's simply not true as I think you mean it.  Reference (which is a predetermined standard) must be used to establish measurement (which is a ruler that I think you are ignoring).  Fine increments only need to be established when that is required by the adjudication.  Most adjudication does not require this at all.  If I fill a glass more than half with water you would only need to verify it's volume if the amount was too close to observe by the eye.  Otherwise, filling a glass 2/3 full only requires the verification of observable amounts to accurately adjudicate that it is indeed more than half full.  The standard of adjudication calls for no further analysis in this case.

Even by your sports analogy, the technological replay of an event is only called for in the rare circumstance of incremental closeness.  The vast majority of plays are made in a game with obviously observable and visually verifiable actions (replay is not used on every play and some cases when it is called for without merit will result in a penalty -loss of time out, etc.).

You are painted into a corner on this.

Also on a previous point, arbitration IS subjective.  That's the point of it.  It is a subjectivity that is contractually accepted by parties involved as a final resolution.

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We should pick this discussion up in private discussion or a new (properly tittled) thread.  Otherwise, this hijacked show thread will be the 'show' that never goes away.

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On 6/23/2019 at 7:45 PM, cfirwin3 said:

There is a hint in there that the subjective elements of adjudication in drumcorps are the majority rule.  When you look at the guidance rubrics, you find that this isn't true for most of the scoring.  The second thing that seems hinted in there that I take issue with is that the early reads could be poor (wrong) and the corps are stuck with that for the season.  I'm not sure if you are suggesting that, but again, I fall back on the simple test to name a corps that historically got a 'bad' read (again, only if you are suggesting this) and was never awarded a proper placement adjustment after achieving excellence (compared to the field) on the season.

What you are effectively saying is that there is no way a corps can start out at nine, and become good enough to medal. 

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35 minutes ago, MikeD said:

Umpiring is totally subjective.

Famous umpire Bill Klem was slow making a call, and one of the players asked if the runner was safe or not. Klem said..."It ain't nothin' till I call it.""

Another time he was later shown a picture of a blown call he had made, and he said "Gentleman, he was out because I said he was out." 

 

Within the next few years baseball will be calling balls and strikes with computers. 

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Just now, MikeRapp said:

What you are effectively saying is that there is no way a corps can start out at nine, and become good enough to medal. 

Yes, but not because of the adjudicators.  The group controls their placement.  They theoretically could do it, but the cost is too great to go there.

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1 minute ago, cfirwin3 said:

Yes, but not because of the adjudicators.  The group controls their placement.  They theoretically could do it, but the cost is too great to go there.

Yeah I’m not buying it. I don’t misunderstand your premise, but I ain’t agreeing.

Ive followed DCI for a long time and I have argued this topic for years. The reality is, we have the best of several imperfect scoring methodologies. When you set a max score of 100, have the field begin in the 70s, and a set number of shows in which to add to your score—you get what we have now. When I first started following dci closely I couldn’t believe we had agreed to such a self fulfilling prophecy as what we have. It’s not fair and it’s not great, but it beats the tick system, which is effectively what you would have with no ceiling on scoring.

Edited by MikeRapp

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