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DrumScorps

North Canton, OH - Saturday, June 22, 2019

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10 hours ago, Stu said:

I said the scoring, the scoring, the scoring in baseball is purely objective. If baseball was scored like the marching arts there would be a rubric sheet with 5 boxes, 5 ranges of possible scoring, descriptors in each box, and the score itself would be determined by a judge evaluating the artistic design of how well the base running sashay effect came across in conveying the intensity of the moment when they crossed home plate. (That particular home run with nobody else on base deserves a score of 7 instead of 1 based on the interpritation of the celebratory run around the bases as applied to the rubric!)

While there are subjective human umpire calls in baseball which can be at times erroneous, there are hundreds more lost opportunities in pop flys, stranding a runner on third, swing and miss, et al which contribute to a runner not crossing home plate to score a run. So the little subjectivity which is there really does not impact who wins and who loses.

Name one descriptor on a music arts GE sheet concerning design 'scoring' that is objective like crossing home plate yields a score, that lends itself to a unified directly measurable factual scoring conclusion instead of someone determing a number, and does not need a unified 'interpretation of opinion' in order to have consistent adjudicated scoring. If you can show that objective scoring critera on a GE sheet as fact, I shall relent.

Before I deal with your request, let me recap (again) where we started and where we are at:

- We started with the assertion that an -8 corps can't move up to 3+ in a season because of the subjectivity in adjudication that is set in stone at early shows and then never altered by adjudication in later shows in spite of excellence.  That is precisely where we started, feel free to go back and read the initial posts.  I am only interested in addressing this assertion.  And I do so by asking for at least 1 historical example where this can be argued as having happened to a group (obviously, I get no response because for all the talk about scientific measurement, the assertion has no flesh and blood evidence of being true).

- We are now zeroed in on only 1 aspect of 1 caption in search of 1 definition for 1 term by way of 1 example which mathematically must account for far less than 40% of the score sheet (because we now all admit that the rest of the score sheet doesn't fit the original premise).  This is a MASSIVE movement of the goalpost that really doesn't require me to answer the premise of the new question (we are already where I said we would be at the beginning).

Given all of that, I will remind us that the scoring rubric deals with brackets (not finite integers, but finite integer groups) that are determined by comparison (which is a scientific procedural measurement).  It doesn't matter that the original rubric questions are dealing with subjective terms, when the agreed upon definitions are unified.  This agreement creates a fixed point of reference.  This is famously demonstrated in the Apollo 13 mission where the crew reasoned that a complex mathematical algorithm or instrumentation was not necessary to successfully complete an engine burn procedure for course correction.  "all I need is a fixed point in space" - Jim Lovell.  I know that you may reject this premise as a demonstration of objectivity (but that rejection is wrong by the definition of what objectivity is).

In GE, among all of the subjective categories, in repertoire effect, 2 (not merely 1) categories deal with objective measurement via observation of alignment (quantitative/qualitative assessment) or an accounting of comparative quantity (the reason for this is that part of the GE caption is supposed to channel evidence from the other technical captions... this is explicit in the guidance training and the verbiage).  The categories are: *Audio and Visual Coordination AND *Variety of Effects.  The same is true for the performance effect category with *Delivered/SUSTAINED the Effects AND * Embodied/SUSTAINED Character, Role, Identity, Style.  The sheet emphasizes the objectivity of these categories by creating an additional fixed point.  It says "How do each of these elements, collectively and individually, COMPARE to each and all other units in the competition?"  BUT WAIT... THERE'S MORE!!!  The 5 boxes of competitive brackets give a starting point for comparison with the scientific measurement terms of observation: RARELY 1-29, SOMETIMES 30-49, USUALLY 50-69, CONSISTENTLY 70-89, ALWAYS 90-100.  This one element of the adjudication sheet (existing in ALL captions) blows the original premise out of the water because it separates the broad placements in question (-8 to 3+) by categorical scoring ranges defined by scientific terms on a continuum of measurement (like distinguishing a glass as having some water in it, being partly filled, half filled, mostly filled or full).

You asked for 1 example (on an irrelevant issue set apart from the original premise), and I gave you about 6.  I ask for 1 example (on the original premise)... and I still get no examples.

I'm out on this one, because I said all that needs to be said (not to convince you, but to demonstrate evidence).  But I would be more than happy to continue on a new thread on this topic, if you wish.  These are fun conversations to have, and I suppose that's what a forum is for!

Edited by cfirwin3

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3 hours ago, Stu said:

While there are subjective human umpire calls in baseball which can be at times erroneous, there are hundreds more lost opportunities in pop flys, stranding a runner on third, swing and miss, et al which contribute to a runner not crossing home plate to score a run. So the little subjectivity which is there really does not impact who wins and who loses.

Actually, even baseball scores are subjective in a way. The home plate umpire signals safe or out at home to record a run or (in some cases) an out. Most of the time it is so obvious that the call is a no brainer, but it is still the umpire call. The subjectivity is only really visible on a few occasions. A close play at the plate is one. Did the runner miss touching home is another. Did a runner at third tag up too soon might be another place the subjectivity becomes visible. 

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14 minutes ago, MikeD said:

Actually, even baseball scores are subjective in a way. The home plate umpire signals safe or out at home to record a run or (in some cases) an out. Most of the time it is so obvious that the call is a no brainer, but it is still the umpire call. The subjectivity is only really visible on a few occasions. A close play at the plate is one. Did the runner miss touching home is another. Did a runner at third tag up too soon might be another place the subjectivity becomes visible. 

AND it is not important to the game to eradicate this.  Fairness is obviously important, but the game requires that all parties accept the presence of an official to arbitrate calls... that in itself is fair and equitable (objective) via submission to a set rule (there is an official to make calls, they make calls based on criteria, and their calls stand no matter what -void of some additional rule that dictates otherwise).

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On 6/23/2019 at 5:14 PM, craiga said:

I don't know what you are talking about. BAC is at an all time high this year design wise....you admit as much in the above comments.  Who says the design team didn't "dig deep"? I think they did.  The live audiences have bern going crazy for the product.  And yes, unlike their former gigs, they do have an extremely high level of autonomy.  In Boston, the management focuses on fundraising and providing the members with the best experience possible. Boston has never been this close ti the top. It is another step in the progression. 

Just wanted to acknowledge your thoughtful response, and let you know that I've given it some thought.  Bottom line is I want them to do as well as possible competitively.  The technical demand is at an all time high, which is awesome.  The staff has prepared the members well, and they can now compete with the best technically.  Regarding GE and artistry -- a topic that can take up many pages -- I see room for improvement.  Are they putting out great shows?  Yes.  Are they doing what is necessary to be the best?  Not yet, imho.  

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On 6/23/2019 at 10:06 PM, phd-student-TTU said:

IMHO, their music book ranges somewhere between elevator music and a college marching band halftime show. Standing around on boxes instead of marching isn’t helping. 

Never hurt Blue Devils before, so why should it hurt Bluecoats?

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14 hours ago, rmurrey74 said:

The judges were taken off the field this year. 

No kidding?  I didn't know that!  I've been complaining about judges on the field for years, all in concern for the safety of the performers on the field.  Nobody ever listened to me.

You just made my day with that news.  👍👍

+++

Now if we can just get that Colt's helmet on the 50 yard line painted green for finals competition (like it was in 2011 when Cadets won with Demons and Angels).  The corps need a blank canvass in which to create their marching masterpieces.  🙏

Edited by wvu80

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22 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

Now if we can just get that Colt's helmet on the 50 yard line painted green for finals competition (like it was in 2011 when Cadets won with Demons and Angels).  The corps need a blank canvass in which to create their marching masterpieces.  🙏

The corps can cover the helmet with tarps and create more safety hazards. 

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1 minute ago, Ediker said:

The corps can cover the helmet with tarps and create more safety hazards. 

I am all about safety for the performers.  I just think with all the visual props the corps put together to create the atmosphere they want, a giant white helmet in the middle of the 50 really ruins the picture for me.

I remember one year where they used green paint to cover it over, it's water soluble paint so it comes right out when DCI finals is over.  Does somebody at DCI think it's cool to have a pro football symbol on the 50?  It's not a football game, it's a drum corps show for goodness sake!

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On 6/22/2019 at 11:11 PM, queenanne_1536 said:

I am stating with full 100% confidence that BAC will not challenge Santa Clara Vanguard, Blue Devils, Carolina Crown, Bluecoats, or Cavaliers during finals week. If I am wrong, then I will eat major huge crow and admit I am a dumb moron who doesn't deserve to ever comment on DCI again. And you will be the first person I grovel to for forgiveness on August 11th. If I am right, I won't rub it in to you, but if I am wrong I promise I will find you and bow down to you. 

You are smarter than I for not making such a bold prediction so early, but after seeing the top 6, the other 5 have out-designed Boston by a mile. 🙂

Interesting to read this exchange you had with craiga again. Boston won a caption at Finals for the first time ever; defeated Carolina Crown partway through the season, and was within a point of Crown on several other occasions; beat Cavaliers seven times in the season; and was within one tenth of the Cavs' score in Finals week, albeit that was three days before Prelims.

So I guess you were partly right?

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On 6/23/2019 at 12:02 AM, N.E. Brigand said:

For a SoundSport group, Rogues Hollow Regiment, was pretty darn good, if still rough, and a great way to open the evening.

Belatedly I just noticed that they won the SoundSport event in Indy, edging out Minnesota Brass.

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