What happened to Madison?

[jeffmolnar]

“This younger generation is lazy and lacks discipline.”

- every older generation ever, since the dawn of time

 

Don’t worry though boomers, I’m sure you are actually the special ones who are finally right! 

[HockeyDad]

Had to go back and read the title of this thread. I saw a handful of replies that attempted to be on topic. The rest is a multi page Stu-a-thon and y’all keep feeding it. WHY?????

[derbydawg]

8 hours ago, madisonsmiley said:

I'm sure it was frustrating listening to Scouts alumni if they were personally attacking and criticizing the marching members. That's inexcusable. If you find any Scouts alumni doing this today, call them out because every other alumnus would like to know who these a#*holes are. I've found the Scouts alumni to be very supportive of the marching members.  

Before gaslighting the alumni, have you done an organizational assessment of the Scout's leadership, strategic planning, customer focus, measurement, analysis, and knowledge management, workforce focus, operations focus, and results (not just competitive)? If so, where are they at as an organization compared to high performing organizations? When you've done that, let's talk about how the Scouts are doing and the root causes of their issues. 

Regarding Sal, who is very talented in many ways and has given a lot to the activity, do you know why he was let go as director? While the facts appear to show Sal was a horrible financial manager, the board was derelict in their oversight duties while Sal was executive director and were ultimately responsible for the organization's financial performance during his tenure. 

Some reactions to your three paragraphs offered above (thanks for your civil response to my post):

1.  Prior to the events of that evening, I had interacted with Scouts alumni for years. A few I would call friends. Most experiences with alumni were simply one or two-time interactions. It was rare that any discussion regarding Scouts didn't turn negative if not ugly. I appreciate the passion associated with our activity, but there are varying ways to express one's self and a level of control and logical thought that should guide such passion. I have certainly "run my mouth" in regards to drum corps, but never in the way I saw displayed that night. There were a lot of alumni in the stands that evening in 2006. Hundreds. The bad behavior and threats I heard expressed were not those of a few, but a few that had become many. After the 2006 Scouts performed that evening, it took some time to descend from the stands. I felt like I was witnessing this audience quickly adopt a mob mentality. It was unexpected, shocking, and extremely unnerving. About half way down the stands, I left the stairs to walk down the stands on the edge of the crowd to reach the field as soon as I could; I truly became concerned for the current members. I was verbally assaulted on my way down. If not a physical threat, I did anticipate verbal assaults thrown at the members. Upon reaching field level, I saw alumni that had already exited the track area then turn back toward the field and start walking. Several of us staff members began running toward the guys, waving for them to go toward the opposite end zone. The look on their faces was one of surprise and disappointment; they were told they would get to interact with alumni, including having the opportunity in some cases to meet the alumni who's nail they wore around their neck. Some current members did interact with the alumni and as previously stated, had positive experiences. Some did not have positive experiences. Some were confused by the negative shouts hurled at them by the very people the members thought would be the most supportive. Needless to say, we had to do some psychological triage that evening. Did most alumni behave poorly? No. That said, those who were behaving badly was much too many; even one would be inappropriate.  Until yesterday, I had not thought about that evening in over a decade. I am surprised how these memories are still emotionally tough for me. Yes, I am sure that single evening has shaded my thoughts toward Scouts alumni. I am aware of this and try to not stereotype. Several years after leaving the organization, a fellow staff member from that year shared a film with me. It was a documentary based on the Scouts. I think is was produced in the early 2000s. I could not watch the entire film. Pretty early in the documentary you see and hear echoes of what I witnessed that night in 2006. I now had a much clearer picture of where all this hate and anger had in part been cultivated. Some of those men may never shake that mind set. It is what they know and is to some degree their Scouts experience. 

2.  Of course I do have the access nor time to do an extensive investigation of all inner workings of the organization. While doing such would most likely further inform me as to why the corps is not in its best way, I do not think that such is necessary for me to express an informed opinion as to what I see as the corps greatest weakness, its alumni. All components you have listed are of course key parts of a successful organization. But, when these things are "broken", who should step in and with a caring mind set, maturity, logical thought, and education help restore order, vision, and action? I have spent many years in the activity as instructor and administrator. While perhaps not the best expert as to how to run a drum corps organization, I would say my expertise is strong enough to know three main things kill a drum corps: money, administration, and alumni. Unfortunately, it is usually a combination of all these things that do the killing. Are there wonderful alumni of the Scouts that have a clear head, positive intentions, and are the best alumni any corps could hope for?  Absolutely. 

3. Yes, Sal is flawed as we all are. Perhaps Sal has grown from those times and of course deserves the opportunity to do so. In my opinion, Sal also saved the corps in many ways. His ability to pull positive, creative, and hardworking people together is uncanny. In one year, he had the corps back in finals. Three years later, in 6th (should have been 5th in my opinion). If he is the reason for financial issues, I refer back to one of the three things that kill a drum corps, administration. This includes a board that should have never let the corps get close to having financial issues. That same board fired Sal without considering anyone else on staff. How would the staff that put "The Carmen Project" on the field  react to Sal being dismissed? Would they all leave? Would any stay? What is their loyalty level to Sal and the Scouts? How would the staff react if they found out Sal had been fired and their opinions, thoughts, insights, futures, were never considered? Does anyone want to work for an organization that is this clueless, ignoring the future of the corps competitively by not considering that keeping all of the staff or even a majority would perhaps insure some level of stability going forward? Perhaps financial woes were a major issue at that time. But, it was clear to me and much if not all of the staff that the board even at that time was clearly broken, uninformed, and not working well from the MYNWA philosophy. 

I do not know how a corps bounces back a third time. History shows us it rarely if ever happens. Maybe BAC and Spirit are showing us it can. I do miss the Scouts being a healthy and highly-competitive organization. Fixing it will be a huge undertaking. If the organization desires the corps to be financially viable, that is one thing. If the organization wants the corps to be highly-competitive again, many alums' opinions as to how that happens and what it looks and sounds  like will have to be completely ignored. How do you ignore the opinions of strongly impassioned people, brothers in this case? certainly when we are probably not talking about a few rogue alumni, but a large number.  Rebuilding will be tough, but I think worth the effort. All my best to the Scouts organization and most importantly, its members. 

[skevinp]

28 minutes ago, jeffmolnar said:

“This younger generation is lazy and lacks discipline.”

- every older generation ever, since the dawn of time

Don’t worry though boomers, I’m sure you are actually the special ones who are finally right! 

If you really believe what you said, I don't understand your cheap shot aimed against one generation.  After all, by your own words, your generation will say the same thing to the next younger generation.  

Or do you believe that YOUR generation "are actually the special ones who are finally right"?  

🙂 

[jeffmolnar]

2 minutes ago, skevinp said:

If you really believe what you said, I don't understand your cheap shot aimed against one generation.  After all, by your own words, your generation will say the same thing to the next younger generation.  

Or do you believe that YOUR generation "are actually the special ones who are finally right"?  

🙂 

My generation will do the same thing. Certain individuals will just have enough self-awareness to not make embarrassing posts on the Internet. Kinda like some of the reasonable boomers in this thread.

[Stu]

1 hour ago, ftwdrummer said:

SO the rule you're putting in place tells the performer "if you join this corps for one year, you can only spend your money to perform at the highest level with this one corps. If you have any interest in ever performing with another corps at this level, you will be forbidden from performing at this level at all for one year, which could potentially include your last eligible year to march. And if we decide that you're not good enough for us to take your money anymore, you still won't be allowed to try and sign on with another corps at this competitive level for a year."

Just to make it clear, this is your position on the matter, yes?

Also, I find it interesting that choosing to spend next year differently than you spent this year constitutes "immediate" self-gratification. It's not like members see that the corps they signed on with is coming out of the gate slow and are leaving the last week in June to march at surprise-corps X.

Nope. You missed the option which would in fact allow direct season to season WC to WC transfer. If a member transfers from WC-x- to WC-a- the very next season, WC-a- would pay compensation to WC-x-. It is called restricted free agency. It deters WC-a- from pilfering talent from WC-x and using WC-x- as a feeder.

[skevinp]

Just now, jeffmolnar said:

My generation will do the same thing. Certain individuals will just have enough self-awareness to not make embarrassing posts on the Internet. Kinda like some of the reasonable boomers in this thread.

Well gosh, thanks for saying that some of us are OK. 

😊

[Stu]

56 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

re-read your words.

You made the accusation, it is up to you to show the proof. Which you can't. Because I never once advocated for forced staying at a hated corps. But that was your accusation.

[Whiskey]

9 minutes ago, derbydawg said:

Some reactions to your three paragraphs offered above (thanks for your civil response to my post):

1.  Prior to the events of that evening, I had interacted with Scouts alumni for years. A few I would call friends. Most experiences with alumni were simply one or two-time interactions. It was rare that any discussion regarding Scouts didn't turn negative if not ugly. I appreciate the passion associated with our activity, but there are varying ways to express one's self and a level of control and logical thought that should guide such passion. I have certainly "run my mouth" in regards to drum corps, but never in the way I saw displayed that night. There were a lot of alumni in the stands that evening in 2006. Hundreds. The bad behavior and threats I heard expressed were not those of a few, but a few that had become many. After the 2006 Scouts performed that evening, it took some time to descend from the stands. I felt like I was witnessing this audience quickly adopt a mob mentality. It was unexpected, shocking, and extremely unnerving. About half way down the stands, I left the stairs to walk down the stands on the edge of the crowd to reach the field as soon as I could; I truly became concerned for the current members. I was verbally assaulted on my way down. If not a physical threat, I did anticipate verbal assaults thrown at the members. Upon reaching field level, I saw alumni that had already exited the track area then turn back toward the field and start walking. Several of us staff members began running toward the guys, waving for them to go toward the opposite end zone. The look on their faces was one of surprise and disappointment; they were told they would get to interact with alumni, including having the opportunity in some cases to meet the alumni who's nail they wore around their neck. Some current members did interact with the alumni and as previously stated, had positive experiences. Some did not have positive experiences. Some were confused by the negative shouts hurled at them by the very people the members thought would be the most supportive. Needless to say, we had to do some psychological triage that evening. Did most alumni behave poorly? No. That said, those who were behaving badly was much too many; even one would be inappropriate.  Until yesterday, I had not thought about that evening in over a decade. I am surprised how these memories are still emotionally tough for me. Yes, I am sure that single evening has shaded my thoughts toward Scouts alumni. I am aware of this and try to not stereotype. Several years after leaving the organization, a fellow staff member from that year shared a film with me. It was a documentary based on the Scouts. I think is was produced in the early 2000s. I could not watch the entire film. Pretty early in the documentary you see and hear echoes of what I witnessed that night in 2006. I now had a much clearer picture of where all this hate and anger had in part been cultivated. Some of those men may never shake that mind set. It is what they know and is to some degree their Scouts experience. 

2.  Of course I do have the access nor time to do an extensive investigation of all inner workings of the organization. While doing such would most likely further inform me as to why the corps is not in its best way, I do not think that such is necessary for me to express an informed opinion as to what I see as the corps greatest weakness, its alumni. All components you have listed are of course key parts of a successful organization. But, when these things are "broken", who should step in and with a caring mind set, maturity, logical thought, and education help restore order, vision, and action? I have spent many years in the activity as instructor and administrator. While perhaps not the best expert as to how to run a drum corps organization, I would say my expertise is strong enough to know three main things kill a drum corps: money, administration, and alumni. Unfortunately, it is usually a combination of all these things that do the killing. Are there wonderful alumni of the Scouts that have a clear head, positive intentions, and are the best alumni any corps could hope for?  Absolutely. 

3. Yes, Sal is flawed as we all are. Perhaps Sal has grown from those times and of course deserves the opportunity to do so. In my opinion, Sal also saved the corps in many ways. His ability to pull positive, creative, and hardworking people together is uncanny. In one year, he had the corps back in finals. Three years later, in 6th (should have been 5th in my opinion). If he is the reason for financial issues, I refer back to one of the three things that kill a drum corps, administration. This includes a board that should have never let the corps get close to having financial issues. That same board fired Sal without considering anyone else on staff. How would the staff that put "The Carmen Project" on the field  react to Sal being dismissed? Would they all leave? Would any stay? What is their loyalty level to Sal and the Scouts? How would the staff react if they found out Sal had been fired and their opinions, thoughts, insights, futures, were never considered? Does anyone want to work for an organization that is this clueless, ignoring the future of the corps competitively by not considering that keeping all of the staff or even a majority would perhaps insure some level of stability going forward? Perhaps financial woes were a major issue at that time. But, it was clear to me and much if not all of the staff that the board even at that time was clearly broken, uninformed, and not working well from the MYNWA philosophy. 

I do not know how a corps bounces back a third time. History shows us it rarely if ever happens. Maybe BAC and Spirit are showing us it can. I do miss the Scouts being a healthy and highly-competitive organization. Fixing it will be a huge undertaking. If the organization desires the corps to be financially viable, that is one thing. If the organization wants the corps to be highly-competitive again, many alums' opinions as to how that happens and what it looks and sounds  like will have to be completely ignored. How do you ignore the opinions of strongly impassioned people, brothers in this case? certainly when we are probably not talking about a few rogue alumni, but a large number.  Rebuilding will be tough, but I think worth the effort. All my best to the Scouts organization and most importantly, its members. 

I read through both your posts and there is one memory that will stick with me during 2006 championships, the Madison alumni.  We went to a bar next to the stadium to have lunch before the show. It was filled with Madison alumni who were taking part in the MSAP.  You could tell they had already had a couple and with that liquid courage, they were talking up a storm about the Scouts and other groups.  There was such bitterness and it turned me off to the organization for many years.  

I highly agree that alumni can kill their corps.  I heard there are some Scout alumni that are taking a wait and see approach. They are looking at a 3-5 year plan to start righting the ship.  They’re being patient.  I’m seeing here the other side though. Everyone wants their say.  

I’ll continue to pray for the Scouts and hope all can be worked out.  

 

[HolyNOLA]

1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said:

spring training is now what 5/6 weeks? not cheap.

corps eat far better now...extra food...not cheap

corps now have to pay for housing pretty much everywhere. not cheap

The eating is subjective. We ate very well at the second corps I marched for. I can't see how it could have gotten any better. 

And housing. Are corps not staying in high school gyms anymore? 

You keep leaving out things like extra instrumentation, staff, props, etc. These things can directly be tied to rising costs. Again, it's not fuel.