Jeff Ream Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 2 hours ago, karuna said: If there's risk only 2 yard in (with a "safe zone" just a few steps back to the track) what is the risk of going inside drill? You're in serious denial. You want to blame the entire rule change on one guy when in fact he's just the proverbial straw. There has always been too much unnecessary risk from percussion judges. The fact that most of the time it's been avoided (most often by too small margins or by performers actively avoiding judges) doesn't mean the risk wasn't there. So in balancing the risk to performers vs reward (basically creating hype tapes for percussionists) there was really no other decision to make. Adjudication should not present any risk at all to performers.If you want to bring up the "returns snare drum incident", certainly judges should be able act to protect member safety. Leaving a snare drum sitting on the field was certainly unsafe. So you've got that situation covered. Brass, guard, and VP judges could all provide far more detail if they were running around the field as well. But that detail is not really necessary to accurately rank and rate. You can't justify a judge putting any member at any risk. 😖 The safe zone is now being utilized for visual stuff with pits being put on the field. Basically the safe zone is hogwash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, karuna said: If there's risk only 2 yard in (with a "safe zone" just a few steps back to the track) what is the risk of going inside drill? You're in serious denial. You want to blame the entire rule change on one guy when in fact he's just the proverbial straw. There has always been too much unnecessary risk from percussion judges. The fact that most of the time it's been avoided (most often by too small margins or by performers actively avoiding judges) doesn't mean the risk wasn't there. So in balancing the risk to performers vs reward (basically creating hype tapes for percussionists) there was really no other decision to make. Adjudication should not present any risk at all to performers.If you want to bring up the "returns snare drum incident", certainly judges should be able act to protect member safety. Leaving a snare drum sitting on the field was certainly unsafe. So you've got that situation covered. Brass, guard, and VP judges could all provide far more detail if they were running around the field as well. But that detail is not really necessary to accurately rank and rate. You can't justify a judge putting any member at any risk. 😖 Oh and no I don’t want to shame one guy. He gave the opposition the example they’ve been dying for. He’s their patsy Edited July 3, 2019 by Jeff Ream Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 1 hour ago, N.E. Brigand said: I'm curious: this issue really only became the subject of much discussion here in the past two years or so. Had it been the subject of concern among designers, staff, and judges for some time before that? It’s been discussed a lot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricS Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, N.E. Brigand said: I mean, you're certainly entitled to this opinion, but obviously lots of people disagree with you, and you won't win them over by just telling them they're wrong. not trying to argue. simply stated my point. Here is an idea for those of you who want judges on the field. Put two teams on the field. One on the sideline and one on the field. Half way through a performance the two teams switch places. They won't know how their scores will be used. I suspect one might be surprised at how similar the scores would be. 6 hours ago, N.E. Brigand said: At one BOA regional I attended last year, it did look to me like a judge was at least giving one tallish prop a close look. No measuring tape, but standing next to it to check against his own height. The rules on height were instituted sometime in the past five years, I think, and they are: no prop taller than 12 feet, and no one standing higher than 6 feet off the ground without a safety railing. Edited July 3, 2019 by EricS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karuna Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 2 hours ago, karuna said: If there's risk only 2 yard in (with a "safe zone" just a few steps back to the track) what is the risk of going inside drill? You're in serious denial. You want to blame the entire rule change on one guy when in fact he's just the proverbial straw. There has always been too much unnecessary risk from percussion judges. The fact that most of the time it's been avoided (most often by too small margins or by performers actively avoiding judges) doesn't mean the risk wasn't there. So in balancing the risk to performers vs reward (basically creating hype tapes for percussionists) there was really no other decision to make. Adjudication should not present any risk at all to performers.If you want to bring up the "returns snare drum incident", certainly judges should be able act to protect member safety. Leaving a snare drum sitting on the field was certainly unsafe. So you've got that situation covered. Brass, guard, and VP judges could all provide far more detail if they were running around the field as well. But that detail is not really necessary to accurately rank and rate. You can't justify a judge putting any member at any risk. 😖 13 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said: The safe zone is now being utilized for visual stuff with pits being put on the field. Basically the safe zone is hogwash So there are risks for a drill collision outside the official playing area where there are no members? Hmm... 11 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said: Oh and no I don’t want to shame one guy. He gave the opposition the example they’ve been dying for. He’s their patsy You've done plenty of shaming of one guy. Too late for that. anyway... You carefully avoided responding to both the bolded questions. I'll repeat them here to make it easier If the risk near the front sideline is real and unpredictable, what's it like out in the middle of the field? Is it ever ok for a judge to put the members at risk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 3 hours ago, karuna said: So there are risks for a drill collision outside the official playing area where there are no members? Hmm... You've done plenty of shaming of one guy. Too late for that. anyway... You carefully avoided responding to both the bolded questions. I'll repeat them here to make it easier If the risk near the front sideline is real and unpredictable, what's it like out in the middle of the field? Is it ever ok for a judge to put the members at risk? well, when far more respected than me have trashed the guy in various online forums, i'll stand by what I have said. The noise truly increased the year he was....evident. There is risk anywhere. Good judges have eyes and ears and use them and don't get tunnel vision. In the history of the activity, I have only ever heard of 3 or 4 collisions that caused any kind of injury, and none were major. Judges on the field have far more often retrieved equipment or sticks that have hit the ground that could have caused serious injuries. Like at a 100 to 1 ratio. Headgear or sticks go down out there now, who is there to get it? No one. Another snare falls off? No one. The risk is minimal if you do your job right, period. The good ones have proven it for decades. There is far more risk placed on the performers themselves than a judge on the field can create. Because if you want to talk about putting members at risk, talk to the design staffs for what they are making the kids do. They create far more risk than a guy talking into an ipad. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karuna Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: well, when far more respected than me have trashed the guy in various online forums, i'll stand by what I have said. The noise truly increased the year he was....evident. There is risk anywhere. Good judges have eyes and ears and use them and don't get tunnel vision. In the history of the activity, I have only ever heard of 3 or 4 collisions that caused any kind of injury, and none were major. Judges on the field have far more often retrieved equipment or sticks that have hit the ground that could have caused serious injuries. Like at a 100 to 1 ratio. Headgear or sticks go down out there now, who is there to get it? No one. Another snare falls off? No one. The risk is minimal if you do your job right, period. The good ones have proven it for decades. There is far more risk placed on the performers themselves than a judge on the field can create. Because if you want to talk about putting members at risk, talk to the design staffs for what they are making the kids do. They create far more risk than a guy talking into an ipad. Lol so you still didn’t answer either question. Because the answer is NO judges should not be putting performers at risk. It’s as simple as that. If you could get a percussion judge to honestly admit all the near misses your 3 or 4 would skyrocket. And trying to change the topic to props or whatever is just deflecting. No judge should put a student at risk. Period. End of sentence. Edited July 3, 2019 by karuna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylogan Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Thank you Jeff Ream. Your response was rational and realistic. When the next kid breaks a leg trying to finish a show or loses a piece of equipment and chaos ensues or injuries pile up we’ll see what will happen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfirwin3 Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 On 6/30/2019 at 11:57 PM, Jeff Ream said: and...what exactly is two yards off the sideline? it's not marked in any meaningful way Just have to note this one... It's DCI drumcorps. EVERYONE on the field level intimately knows the measure of two yards. I don't think the presence of markers is an issue here. A judge claiming that they didn't know the distance in an activity that prides itself in accurate estimation of distance would lose their credibility in a hurry. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 10 hours ago, karuna said: Lol so you still didn’t answer either question. Because the answer is NO judges should not be putting performers at risk. It’s as simple as that. If you could get a percussion judge to honestly admit all the near misses your 3 or 4 would skyrocket. And trying to change the topic to props or whatever is just deflecting. No judge should put a student at risk. Period. End of sentence. they aren't putting the performers at risk if doing right. They are actually helping them far more times. I have said it 5 times now, and that IS the answer. Oh the Crown kid who broke his leg in 2010.....the drum judge ran over to try and help and warn people off. Now, the kid lies there and possible gets trampled. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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